Mechanics of Death aka How have you died?

[Markn]

I wonder how your experience would match with mine if instead of having two Clerics, a Warlord, and a Paladin, you just had, say, a Warlord?

No question that the experience would be vastly different! Because we have so many "healers" I sometimes forget that its not the the surge that can be limiting but the healing powers to trigger them.

We, like you, don't like the idea of resting just because the clerics daily is used up. We tend to only rest if the majority of the party is near or at the end of their dailies and even then its only if the story does not call for it.

From my perspective, 4e is a little on the weak side in that the mechanics significantly increase the chance of death when the story drives the PCs forward. In previous editions, there were other forms of healings, be it potions, wands, etc that a group could still use when the story was driving you on. They may have been suboptimal choices but at least you had them. In 4e, if you are out of healing surges, you are out of luck!

 

[lukelightning]

That can be a major factor. I play LFR, and sometimes a group will end up without a dedicated healer. It makes a big difference.

I've noticed the same thing in LFR. One big issue is that it seems that non-dwarves are very reluctant to use their second winds because they don't want to give up their precious standard actions. The problem is that once you are down, it's pretty much up to the healer's special powers to get you back up, and they normally can only do that twice.

 

[cmbarona]

I've played in a group for some time now where my Dragonborn Inspiring Warlord was the only leader, and we didn't have any defenders. We very recently got a Paladin, but I haven't played with him much, so I can't really judge his overall effect on the game.

During our sans-defender games, I learned very quickly the importance of my role in the scheme of things. I was particularly excited when Martial Power came out. Since then, I've been working on maximizing my healing output, and I've become a pretty fair judge of when to heal. I encourage players to tell me when they go bloodied, and try to get an Inspiring Word to them ASAP. Rousing Words in particular is a healing powerhouse. As a result, it's actually a fairly rare occurance that any of the PCs go down, and we haven't yet had any deaths.

Since the Warlord focuses mainly on surge-based healing, we've had people get pretty low toward the end of a day, but that usually isn't a problem for the "15 minute workday" issue. We tend to police ourselves against metagaming, and prefer to press on for personal narrative reasons if we think we can reasonably expect to survive the next battle.

 

[Gort]

I made a thread on this topic before, and I haven't had a chance to play since, unfortunately.

 

[Dan'L]

Character death from my campaign experience (briefly):

1 - Eladrin Wizard - negative bloodied - fallen to (story driven) focus fire while Leader absent. Cause: tactics; lack of HS triggers

2 - Human Ranger - 3 failed death saves - fell in combat when Leader player again absent. Cause: lack of HS triggers.

3 - Genasi Wizard - negative bloodied - fell to CDG in a gauntlet encounter situation. Cause: lack of Healing Surges; tactics.

4&5 - Warforged Swordmage, Elf Fighter - negative bloodied - died from ongoing effect damage from a reskinned shambling mound. Cause: tactics; cold dice on crucial escape rolls.

From my perspective, 4e is a little on the weak side in that the mechanics significantly increase the chance of death when the story drives the PCs forward. In previous editions, there were other forms of healings, be it potions, wands, etc that a group could still use when the story was driving you on. They may have been suboptimal choices but at least you had them. In 4e, if you are out of healing surges, you are out of luck!

A bit off-topic and house-ruley, but you could try instituting a HS regain that comes in at milestones. My suggestion, off the top of my head, would be 1 HS regained per tier at each milestone, with a limit that no character can have more than their daily maximum of surges.

-Dan'L

 

[fba827]

Let's see .... (we have rotating DMs and campaigns, so all of this is from different campaign-dm combinations)

Two deaths (same fight) by ongoing damage *and* outside of line of effect and line of sight so the warlord in the group was unable to inspire them. (It was a story-arc climactic fight, not just "a regular fight")

one death from a massive damage when a PC got himself seperated and cornered by an NPC who was out for revenge against that specific PC (that PC killed her family, and then got himself separated from the group during downtime in the city, so it was a solo PC in the fight)

one death from 3 failed saves (our group was split due to absent players so we had no defender or leader, the remaining 3 of us were 2 strikers and a controller not built for being focused targets). The PC went down and then failed 3 saves since the other 2 needed to keep busy trying to keep themselves alive

one death because the player was no longer going to be in the group so the PC became an NPC and ended up dieing for story reasons. but i don't think that counts since was an NPC at the time of death.


Summation:
so, yeah, all of our deaths (both massive damage and failed saves) so far can be said to be the result of the party not being it's full group at the time (either isolated from one another or unable to help one another).

 

[Akaiku]

A wizard died from a encounter that had a healing surge drain+damage area and an invisible enemy who could push at range.

Another fight would have been a tpk if not for a survive x rounds victory condition as it was 10 or so guys who had an aura 2 that was 5 damage and you can't spend healing surges.

A paladin got trapped in a room at the other end of a circular stairway. A high hp brute cut off the rest of the party, then another (invisible) enemy standing behind the brute permanently made it immune to being pushed. Paladin got dropped cause the invisible enemy did unreasonable damage whilst invisible and cloaked the other 4 or so enemies in darkness.

Sorceress tried to fly past the brute, took 2 AoO's one from the brute, one from the invisible person she didn't know was there, dropped to -2 from full hp (this is all level 5)

Note, neither of those was negative bloodied. That's where wizard pc comes in! Stinking cloud on a cloud of darkness that contained 2 dieing pc's. Poof! Negitive bloodied and killed by pc wizard. (Note, no longer in that campaign >.>)

On the other hand, my avenger has only had to roll one death save and it was a 20. That was funny, though I end up having like no surges at the end of the day, compaired to the barbarian who gets missed once every 3 or so fights and ends the day with more surges then I start with.

 

[Flipguarder]

i really dislike "you can't spend healing surges" effects that last the whole encounter. I don't think I'll ever use them.

 

[MarkB]

I've noticed the same thing in LFR. One big issue is that it seems that non-dwarves are very reluctant to use their second winds because they don't want to give up their precious standard actions. The problem is that once you are down, it's pretty much up to the healer's special powers to get you back up, and they normally can only do that twice.

I've certainly seen examples of that - and also of "but if I use my Second Wind, I only get my surge value back" from players accustomed to the bonus healing of leaders' surge-triggers. Sometimes that's a legitimate gamble - trading short-term fragility for long-term durability - but it can go badly all too easily.

 

[Markn]

I can certainly vouch for players not wanting to use "only" their second wind. Most players in our group are loath to use them. Part of it is because it is a standard action and the other part is that it is less efficent than using them with a Leaders healing power. Our group tends to use Second Winds when we are split up or have many people taking a lot of damage and the leader simply can't get to everyone.

Fact is, healing surges are a limited commodity. Games were the story is the driver forces players to want to get the most out of each healing surge. More healing will mean less surges used and at the end of a long day of fighting it may mean having that extra surge to save you from death.

Personally, I would like to see a form of healing that does not use healing surges, but perhaps is not as optimal as the hit points gained from a healing surge just to address the issue. I know I can house rule it but I think its something the 4e designers may want to address.