Medieval d20

[Esteban]

I'll take that as an admission that you failed to do adequate historical research and used the wrong hue, altogether.

Should I expect similar care throughout your book?

:\

I generally lurk, but I have to reply to this:

1. Krieg is not the author of the book in question you nitwit.

2. I absolutely agree with him, you are splitting hairs. And you are also coming off as a pompous ass who happens to know some obscure bit of info on how purple is defined during the middle ages *yawn*

 

[Turanil]

which is the better book GR's The Medieval player's handbook

or Sword & Scorcery's Relics and Rituals: Excalibur

I bought the two books! I have written a review for Medieval Player's Manual, and there is 2 reviews for SS-RR-Excalibur. I would suggest to read them.

I don't think one of the two books is better than the other. It depends on what you intend to do.

- Medieval Player's Manual emphasizes on a "realistic" European medieval setting. It is much about the Christian faith in such a setting, and nothing about elves, dwarves, and wizards casting fireballs. Many of the classes presented would work better in a heavy role-playing game, than a roll-playing game full of hack'n'slash where they would be at a loss. Yet, you could use that game, then add a Faery world where do exist elves, dwarves, etc., who are wizards and druids (and other forbidden classes). This would be very interesting: a restrictive medieval Europe with an historical ambiance, plus the parralel plane of Faery full of wonder.

- Relic & Ritual Excalibur is to play Arthurian high fantasy (so all D&D classes and races do apply) in a typical D&D kind of setting. As such, nothing about the Christian faith in this book, but rules and classes on knights, info on Faery realms, etc. I especially like the treatment given on the races which IMO is really excellent.

So, if you want something really historical go for Medieval Player's Manual, but if you prefer the type of typical D&D game, Relic & Ritual Excalibur is probably more appropriate.

 

[Vigilance]

Uhhhhhhhhh...

I can show you references to and I quote "The Purple Knight" from the literature.

He can be whatever SHADE of purple your heart desires

Chuck

But what color is this purple, and is this purple presented as the correct color or as the completely wrong color? Most people, if asked to point out something "purple" as it would have been used in the Arthurian source material, will point to something that is completely the wrong color. They will point to something "violet", not to something that would have been described as "purple" in the Arthurian literature.

http://www.virtue.to/articles/images/1300s_real_dalmatic_lg.jpg is a photograph of a true purple garment. No, it is not faded. No, it is not discolored. It is "purple" as the term was used in the medieval and earlier eras.

So, are these so-called "purple" knights for which you claim authenticity actually authentically "purple" or are they actually the completely incorrect modern "violet" color?

And a discussion of the heraldic "purpure" vs the Roman/Imperial "purple":
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/purpure.htm

 

[Kax Tuglebend]

hmm, i generally lurk also (mainly because i keep forgetting my passwords..)

i have to agree he is technically splitting hairs, but i also have to ask Krieg and Esteban, do you both roleplay in black and white?

"as the sound of the hooves draws nearer you see a barded warhorse emerge from the foliage ahead, a man clad in well maintained chainmail sits relaxed in its saddle, keen eyes scouring the area about you, his livery clearly visible on his shield: a grey and grey checked field upon which is a dark grey griffon holding a light grey lightning bolt"

Maybe its just down to spending too many years painting space marines.. but i wouldnt want to just say "the knight is wearing purple" i'd like to describe what type of purple it is, and if i am playing a (semi)historical game then i would want to describe the sort of purple it would have been

PS if the above message is a totally garbled mess please put it down to too much caffiene and not enough sleep..
PPS it isnt meant to sound mean..

 

[Vigilance]

In the Irish Arthurian Romance "Eachtra an Amaddan Mor" two brothers plotted against Arthur and were killed.

Thier youngest brother, then an infant, was raised in obscurity in the woods, growing to a mighty warrior called "the Great Fool".

According to this poem the Great Fool defeated Gawain, the Purple Knight, the Red Knight, and the Speckled Knight.

This is just one Arthurian reference to a Purple Knight

Chuck

PS Sorry Dogbrain, to the best of my knowledge the poem doesn't say if it's purple, lilac, violet, or hyacinth, it just calls it purple.

I actually have no problem with purple as a colour during the Middle Ages, in that I know that purpur(e) was a recognized heraldic tincture, but rather that I don't remember reading of a "Purple Knight" in any of the Arthurian legends. Then again, I am quite willing to be proven wrong on this point.

 

[morrigan]

High Medieval

So, pretty much Ars Magica without the cool magic or the troupe-style play? Or is there some other way in which these are distinct and/or better than an Ars Magica product?

Hmmm...that sounds more disparaging than i mean it to. If they're good, and not all crunch, i'll probably pick up at least some of the regional sourcebooks for use with Ars Magica. But i do have to wonder if the market you want is already playing Ars (or Pendragon, or Harn). Or, how does your product differ from these (so that it's targeting different people)? More fantastical? Less deadly? Just that it's closer to the D&D3E baseline?

Well, to keep it brief, it differs in a number of ways but probably the biggest is that it's OGL, i.e. it's D20 based and will be readily playable by DnD fans, no new system to learn.

Secondly, yes, it could be considered more "fantastical" than Ars Magica. Goblins, halfling, ogres, minotaurs, etc.; they will all exists in High Medieval, just not in standard DnD concentrations. A group of adventurers may find themselves fighting a Dragon in this game but said Dragon would never be seen terrorizing London or Rome, it will be deep in the wilderness. No Drow armies attacking the surface world but, sure, Drow societies might exists deep in the earth.

Essentially, it will be more fantasy than Ars Magica but not too Tolkienesque where the fantasy elements would radically change real history.

Now all that aside, we do expect Ars Magica players (and other game systems that are based on our real world) to be able to benefit from our sourcebooks. They will be primarily "fluff" in that the majority of the books will be setting related. Parts should actually read more like history books than gaming books (except again for the fantastical elements). We fully intend to cover, in GREAT detail, the lands and realms of medieval Europe. We are using 1250 as our baseline date so the Cistercians, The Templars, the Teutonic Knights, the beginning of the HRE interregnum, Englands declining holding in France, the reconqiuista in Spain... all will be detailed for game use.

Anyway, we believe the game will fill a niche for medieval style play that treads the line between "reality" and fantasy.

Cheers,
Scott Agnew
Morrigan Press Inc.

 

[Krieg]

hmm, i generally lurk also (mainly because i keep forgetting my passwords..)

i have to agree he is technically splitting hairs, but i also have to ask Krieg and Esteban, do you both roleplay in black and white?

.../snip/...

Maybe its just down to spending too many years painting space marines.. but i wouldnt want to just say "the knight is wearing purple" i'd like to describe what type of purple it is, and if i am playing a (semi)historical game then i would want to describe the sort of purple it would have been

PS if the above message is a totally garbled mess please put it down to too much caffiene and not enough sleep..
PPS it isnt meant to sound mean..

Your point is completely valid.

Of course we don't game in black and white, like most gamers the vast majority of our visualization takes place entirely within our imagination. The black and white reference was merely to illustrate the ludicrousness of attacking a product for assigning an improper hue to the term purple, when NO specific hue is specified. The term purple is merely used in a generic fashion to represent a symbolic reference.

If a DM describes an encounter with a "purple" knight, the players are going to use their own knoweledge base to visualize said knight's appearance. The important thing is that the understand the symbolic meaning of the term. They are going to use their own knoweledge base to assign a mental "color" to the scene. If the DM goes out of his way to go off on a tangent describing how what they (the players) think is purple isn't really purple, they are most likely just going to roll their eyes and visualize it any damn way they please.

Not to mention the fact that one of my players is color-blind and wouldn't be able to tell the two shades apart anyways!

Of course let's not forget that the product in question is in no way a historical game (even a semi/quasi or pseudo one) it is an entirely mythological one.

According to this poem the Great Fool defeated Gawain, the Purple Knight, the Red Knight, and the Speckled Knight.

Well now I just feel cheated! Where is the Speckled Knight prestige class?!?!

Probably holding it back for some expanion pack money grab. Sheesh!

PS Sorry Dogbrain, to the best of my knowledge the poem doesn't say if it's purple, lilac, violet, or hyacinth, it just calls it purple.

 

[Psion]

I'll take that as an admission that you failed to do adequate historical research and used the wrong hue, altogether.

Should I expect similar care throughout your book?

Not only is this extremely snarky and you are not speaking to the author, the author has, indeed, demonstrated that he has done his reasearch.

I think you owe Mr. Rice -- and Kreig -- an apology.

 

[Psion]

Oh, for anyone that cares, I have a review of the Medieval Players Manual up now.

It's very thorough and compelling in its treatment of Medieval takes on magic, but I must admit that it did not entice me the same way Testament did.

 

[Wombat]

In the Irish Arthurian Romance "Eachtra an Amaddan Mor" two brothers plotted against Arthur and were killed.

Thier youngest brother, then an infant, was raised in obscurity in the woods, growing to a mighty warrior called "the Great Fool".

According to this poem the Great Fool defeated Gawain, the Purple Knight, the Red Knight, and the Speckled Knight.

This is just one Arthurian reference to a Purple Knight

Chuck

PS Sorry Dogbrain, to the best of my knowledge the poem doesn't say if it's purple, lilac, violet, or hyacinth, it just calls it purple.

Wow. I was totally unaware of this particular work. I now have another text I need to get ahold of!

(Checking New Arthurian Encyclopedia) (I love this book)

"An obscure but fascinating Irish tale, postmedieval but of uncertain date, is Eachtra an Amadain Mhoir ("The Adventures of the Great Fool"), which is distantly associated with the Perceval story and with the tempting theme found in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight."

As I said, new one on me; I had seen many other colours used for knights, but this is the first time I had heard a reference to purple. I stand quite happily corrected, not least for the fact that purple is, indeed, my favourite colour