Mental saves

[Jeff Carlsen]

I was thinking similarly too, but then how do we reconcile 'confidence'?

The Bard has confidence for public performance and the Paladin has confidence to strike boldly into the enemy midst.

It's that path that leads charisma to be being the stat to counter fear.

(Perhaps 'Courage' is the better term) [Edit]

I would say that wisdom is that which allows you to act as you must despite your baser instincts. Charisma is what allows you to act as yourself despite external pressure.

Both might fight what we consider fear, but they're fear of different things. Wisdom grants you courage to face external threats. Charisma grants you boldness to confront yourself. The former is more intellectual and self aware. The latter is more natural and automatic.

I imagine it like this: with a charm spell, a successful charisma save means you aren't charmed. It's automatic. Your personality is simply stronger than the magic. But with a fear affect, a successful wisdom save doesn't mean you aren't afraid. It means you act despite your fear.

 

[jsaving]

Next hasn't done a great job thus far clearly differentiating between the mental stats. Reading between the lines, though, I wonder if they aren't groping toward something like this:

STR - Resist being pushed against your will (gust of wind).
DEX - "Dodge" physical damage (fireball).
CON - Endure debilitating effects (poison).
INT - Escape spells that challenge your IQ (maze).
WIS - Endure debilitating mental effects (fear).
CHA - Resist being mentally pushed against your will (charm).

Though I'd actually prefer to see the mental stats do something like this:

INT - "Dodge" mental damage (psionic blast).
WIS - See through spells that affect your senses (illusions).
CHA - Overcome effects that influence your actions (charm, fear).

 

[BendBars/LiftGates]

Here's what I'd do. This is based on what the ability scores seem most appropriate for, as well as considering "Which character classes ought to be best at defending these?"

INT is used against:
- illusions
- maze
- confusion (umber hulks, etc.)
Intelligence lets you "think through" complicated situations. Wizards and other high-INT characters aren't easily stumped by riddles, false appearances, or bright sparkly lights.

CHA is used against:
- charm
- dominate
- bluffing*
Charisma determines your inner power and resistance to mental compulsion. The bard in the party is strong against these sorts of effects (although whether he's equally strong-willed against his own impulses has more to do with whether he has a high Wisdom).

WIS is used against:
- fear
- phantasmal killer
- mind blast
- insanity
- impulses (addictions, greed, curiosity, the urge to push the button that says "Do not push")
- being blinded by nymphs
Wisdom describes your steely nerve and unflinching determination. The cleric in the party is strong against these sorts of effects.

* This makes sense to me. A charlatan uses Charisma to spin a story, and the way that you avoid getting conned is to have the confidence to resist letting him influence your decisions. And it means that your savvy thief knows how to avoid falling prey to his own tricks, while his cleric buddy might get suckered into buying a ten-year subscription to People from a door-to-door salesman. This has the unusual effect of turning your Rogue's attempt to fast-talk his way past the guards into a Charisma vs. Charisma battle. Again, this makes sense to me: This is a battle determined by your ability to let your personality overwhelm his. However, for the purposes of game design, I don't necessarily think it's a good idea for a single stat to be used for "attack" and "defense."

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

There seems to be problem attaching fear to wisdom, in that how does this model the stupidly brave? Do they have good wisdom - or is being brave a failed save??

 

[triqui]

Perception is a factor of mental reflexes and quick thinking, and so belongs with Intelligence.

The problem with that is that you either have mathematician cats, owls, eagles and wolves, or you'll have deaf and blind cats, owls, eagles and wolves.

Perception can't be tied to intelligence, because animals aren't intelligent.

 

[DogBackward]

Perception can't be tied to intelligence, because animals aren't intelligent.

This is another of those silly things I wouldn't mind addressing; yes, yes they are. Many animals are incredibly cunning and clever, which is a factor of intelligence. Keep in mind that Intelligence 10 doesn't automatically imply sapience, or language or knowledge. Just don't give them any training in Lore skills, and specify that animals can't make any Lore checks other than Natural Lore. You shouldn't have to specify that animals can't speak or understand language, but you might want to anyway. Then give them training in Perception, and racial bonuses if they seem necessary.

There is a huge variation in Intelligence between animals, not just "1" and "2".

 

[Advilaar]

Int - illusions, that deceive the mind
Wis - charms, that manipulate feelings
Cha - fear effects, that overwhelm self control

Anyone else having a problem wrapping your head around this? Between wisdom and charisma, there seems to be alot of overlap and not much hard differances. I almost miss fort/reflex/will. Yeah, it is yet something else to put on a character sheet and in some editions yet another table and formula. But at least it was cut and dried.

 

[triqui]

This is another of those silly things I wouldn't mind addressing; yes, yes they are. Many animals are incredibly cunning and clever, which is a factor of intelligence. Keep in mind that Intelligence 10 doesn't automatically imply sapience, or language or knowledge. Just don't give them any training in Lore skills, and specify that animals can't make any Lore checks other than Natural Lore. You shouldn't have to specify that animals can't speak or understand language, but you might want to anyway. Then give them training in Perception, and racial bonuses if they seem necessary.

There is a huge variation in Intelligence between animals, not just "1" and "2".

There are animals that are "cunning" and have "intuitiion". They aren't "intelligent". Forget about Lores or Languages. A horse shouldn't resolve a puzzle. Which is not a "lore" check, it's a pure Intelligence check. Intelligence is the measure of your ability to reason. And animals don't reason. They can be cunning, but they aren't intelligent.

Even if you give them above 3 intelligence, they won't have positive bonus. No wolf has +2 or +3 intelligence bonus. But it's reasonable they have an ability bonus to skills like Survival, or Perception. They shouldn't have a bonus to solve puzzles.

 

[Sadrik]

I agree that the mental saves are a mess. Wisdom needs to perception based saves and other "awareness" stuff. INT needs to "logic" and figuring out stuff (illusions). CHA should be willpower and everything that entails (fear charms etc.).

The only new one would be an awareness save. When you think of the applications this is pretty cut and dry. This, would be the best application of the mental saves.

 

[RangerWickett]

How about a test? Here are three icons who I think we can agree fit certain assumptions of high stats.

High Intelligence - Bill Gates
High Wisdom - The Dalai Lama
High Charisma - Bill Clinton

Who do you think would be best able to get through the following spells? Who's least?

1. I cast suggestion, and tell them to run as far away as they can.

2. I cast dragonfear, and roar at them to try to scare them into fleeing.

3. I cast hallucinatory terrain, and try to convince them the building is on fire so they'll flee.

My answers
[sblock]The Dalai Lama isn't easily swayed by my suggestion, nor does he panic in the face of magical fear. He might not think to question the spontaneous combustion of a building, though, and would probably run from that.

Bill Gates isn't particularly resistant to compulsion or fear magic, but he's clever enough to be skeptical of the sudden fire. He knows what's possible, and as long as his mind isn't being affected, he can reason out when things are wrong.

Bill Clinton, well, he might recognize the suggestion, and know not to listen to it, because he's persuaded people plenty in his time. But dragon roar? He'd run from that. Fire too.

At least in my opinion, this shows that Int works for illusions, Wis for charm or fear, and Cha for charm only.[/sblock]