Mental saves

[Sadrik]

Wisdom = awareness. Go full on with this concept and it becomes quite simple to adjudicate the mental saves. Goblins try and sneak up, make a wisdom save. Low level psychic hum, roll a wisdom save to notice its implication. Trap is sprung, roll to see if you notice it before X happens.

 

[Scipio202]

I took a look at the spell list in the D20 SRD to see what kind of saves "fit" for various spells. Here is what made sense to me:

Str: physical object/force/move
Dex: dodge blast
Con: poison/disease/drain
Int: illusion/confusion/choice
Wis: fear/curse / holy&unholy
Cha: charm/personality

And here are some spells that would have each save:

Str: Black Tentacles, imprisonment, repulsion, snare
Dex: damaging evocations
Con: Baleful Polymorph, enervation, finger of death, flesh to stone, poison
Int: Confusion, feeblemind, Geas, Halluc Terrain, hypnotic pattern, insanity, Maze
Wis: bestow curse, cause fear, chaos hammer, doom, unholy blight
Cha: charm monster, charm person, dominate person, zone of truth

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Wait a sec, are we saying that wise people are the bravest??

Animals are excellent examples of wise beings, they calculate capabilities in a split second and have no compunction in backing down if it isn't worth it. A sense of shame doesn't enter the picture.

Humans on the other hand can somehow attach such value to abstract concepts and then almost-happily risk death.

By attaching fear to wisdom rather than charisma we're basically ruling out the brainlessly brave archetype?

 

[triqui]

How about a test? Here are three icons who I think we can agree fit certain assumptions of high stats.

High Intelligence - Bill Gates
High Wisdom - The Dalai Lama
High Charisma - Bill Clinton

Who do you think would be best able to get through the following spells? Who's least?

1. I cast suggestion, and tell them to run as far away as they can.

2. I cast dragonfear, and roar at them to try to scare them into fleeing.

3. I cast hallucinatory terrain, and try to convince them the building is on fire so they'll flee.

My answers
[sblock]The Dalai Lama isn't easily swayed by my suggestion, nor does he panic in the face of magical fear. He might not think to question the spontaneous combustion of a building, though, and would probably run from that.

Bill Gates isn't particularly resistant to compulsion or fear magic, but he's clever enough to be skeptical of the sudden fire. He knows what's possible, and as long as his mind isn't being affected, he can reason out when things are wrong.

Bill Clinton, well, he might recognize the suggestion, and know not to listen to it, because he's persuaded people plenty in his time. But dragon roar? He'd run from that. Fire too.

At least in my opinion, this shows that Int works for illusions, Wis for charm or fear, and Cha for charm only.[/sblock]

The problem with your example, is that Dalai Lama has both high wisdom and high Charisma.

 

[Scipio202]

Wait a sec, are we saying that wise people are the bravest??

Animals are excellent examples of wise beings, they calculate capabilities in a split second and have no compunction in backing down if it isn't worth it. A sense of shame doesn't enter the picture.

Humans on the other hand can somehow attach such value to abstract concepts and then almost-happily risk death.

By attaching fear to wisdom rather than charisma we're basically ruling out the brainlessly brave archetype?

I can see an argument for fear as Cha, but then Wis is pretty bare. I associate Wis with the serene mystic or the faithful cleric, and magical fear often comes from Undead and Demons, so Wis <-> fear made sense to me.

 

[Vael]

Since wisdom is the goto stat for perception and sense motive ... from a game balance point of view, that's potent enough. Saves against mental attack spells like illusions or charms should all be Int or Cha. This should at least prevent the "Charisma is a dump stat" and make it easier to break down the divisions. Attempting to fool the mind is an Int save, attempting to control the mind is a Cha save.

 

[slobo777]

Wait a sec, are we saying that wise people are the bravest??

Animals are excellent examples of wise beings, they calculate capabilities in a split second and have no compunction in backing down if it isn't worth it. A sense of shame doesn't enter the picture.

Humans on the other hand can somehow attach such value to abstract concepts and then almost-happily risk death.

By attaching fear to wisdom rather than charisma we're basically ruling out the brainlessly brave archetype?

The 3 mental stats have their limitations. That's where save bonuses, versus specific sub-types of saving throw, and associated with classes, races and backgrounds come in. E.g. barbarians (not traditionally high Wis or Cha characters) get +2 saves versus fear when raging.

Such bonuses have been in the game a long time, and I expect wherever WotC assign a particular type of save to one of the six stats, they will have a few edge cases that are worth adjustment, for the sake of making slightly-more-believable characters.