Mercurial Greatsword

[reapersaurus]

Statstically proven... LOL. By who?

And don't give me that crap about paying the extra feat. You gotta be kidding me.

It doesn;t matter by who - the numbers were crunched, and statistically, it was fairly well shown (e.g. proven) that the benefit of a 2d6, 20x4 weapon was not much better than a 2d6, 19-20, x2 weapon. Certainly not worth a feat. I think they even compared it with Weapon Focus, and saw that that was better than MG.

And I can't believe you're dismissing the palpable cost of a feat to use it properly.
Just because you're using the one PC in your campaign as a comparison, doesn't mean that's how the feat should be defined by.

And what's abusive about this PC of yours, anyway?
He's got a 18-20 crit weapon, after taking Improved Crit:MG, and he can have an almost-guaranteed x4 crit, once per day with Power Critical, right?
You should see a Lance-wielding, Spiritied-Charge-using, Rhino-Hide-wearing horse-rider - he'd terrify your group, apparently, and send you curling up in fetal throes of "broken!" "Munchkin!" "he can do that on EVERY charge attack?"

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I never implied that the Weapon Master prestige class was overpowered. Where did you see me say that? I offered the Weapon Master as an example of how the merc greatsword can be abused. Get it? It isn't so much the merc greatsword itself, it's combinations that exist to be used by players to fully abuse it.

Yes, critical hits have their fair share of limitations...against undead, oozes and constructs? While those types of creatures can be fun to pit againts a party now and then, I don't necessarily enjoy running whole adventures setup that way.

I believe what was meant is that the weapon in not unbalanced, which was in answer to your assertion that it was. The poster in question was saying that the Weapon Master concept has been used to try to assert that the class can make any weapon appear unbalanced. Over the past couple of years, we've seen this method used for a number of different weapons.

 

[reapersaurus]

ahh.. I just looked up the Weapon Master closer - I see what your problem is.

The problem is not the MG.

 

[Iced Tea]

the Mecurial Greatsword comes from Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, just thought i would let you know since im sure no one else knows that.

 

[Iced Tea]

BTW, i have never read the series and just wanted to be the tenth or so person to point out where it was from . the merc. sword has been reduced in the errata, if you want to know just ask incase these people have posted all of the aspects about it already, im to lazy to fnish the thread.

 

[genshou]

Well... it can be a munchkin sword...

I'm afraid I must agree with the people who say it IS balanced. Six months ago, I did about 90 notebook pgs. of fighter analysis, purely mathematical, and do you know what I learned? That only a fighter who uses TWO weapons is truly powerful, and the fact that they cannot use a shield (EXCEPTION: Animated) helps balance somewhat. Still, Monkey Grip: MG to use one in the main hand, and a mercurial longsword in the other. Now THAT creates a munchkin. I created Galahad just to test this concept. When he got his MG enchanted fully, this is what it was: +1 keen with all four bursts (acidic burst is either in FRCS or some supplemental book). His AVERAGE damage when wielding the MG two-handed was 244 on a crit (when he used the Weapon Master's increased multiplier) and rougly 215-220 one-handed. He was a tempest first, though, so instead of increased multiplier he got an excessive amounts of off-hand damage. Of course, I would never let a player use a character like Galahad in the first place. I would be paying enough attention to see the early warning signs.

So what is my point? Well, to illustrate a little better, using my latest fighter. I decided I wanted a so-called "maxer" instead of my usual Lasher, who can kick the crap out of a maxer due to strategy and clever feat choices most of the time, by the way. So, I made Gralck, a half-orc Fighter/Weapon Master. Only instead of using an "overpowered," exotic weapon, I used a falchion, essentially an extra-long scimitar. And Gralck is deadly with it. Once, I created Legaraviel Meliamne, a gray elf Ranger/Tempest who used TWF with a heavy pick/light pick. After using him, all I have to say is that rangers CAN kick ass. I could have done the same thing with a fighter, but... fighters don't get Hide as a class skill, and let's just say he also used sniping occasionally with his MC longbow (18 Str), and the poor NPCs suffered once they found him and closed into melee range.

So, the point is, I can make a weapon master (or tempest) deadly with any decent weapon, not just the so-called "overpowered" ones. So don't think someone is a munchkin just because they want to use an exotic weapon. Some munchkins (such as my friend Calvin) can make a killing machine out of a DAGGER. Don't just criticize everything powerful. I tell my players they can use the harm spell as many times as they want, but villains tend to spread the word about PC tactics, and I as DM will use their favorite tactics against them. If they want to use mercurial greatswords or harm, show them the other side of it by making an evil fighter who uses one, too. Or use Sunder and Improved Sunder at long range, with a duom-wielding weapon master.

As for the MG of the planes, would you punish the players for buying bane (abberation) weapons in a beholder war campaign? Well, you might make the beholders tougher somehow, or perhaps slightly lower the experience awards. If not all PCs have these weapons, however, that can make the others feel like they're being punished for someone else's actions. My best advice to you is this: send them against an ogre mage monk or whatnot. Why is the ogre mage exploring the planes - and most importantly - working with their foes? That question could be the source of many adventures for the PCs - adventures in which perhaps a big outsider-slaying sword might not be so useful.

My thanks to everyone in here for not turning this place into a huge insult-fling. The "Japanese Sword Corrections and Additions" board didn't do such a good job. In other words, kudos to all of you for being civil, and keep it up. We're getting some good opposition in here without the dirty fighting.

 

[Carceri]

It doesn;t matter by who - the numbers were crunched, and statistically, it was fairly well shown (e.g. proven) that the benefit of a 2d6, 20x4 weapon was not much better than a 2d6, 19-20, x2 weapon. Certainly not worth a feat. I think they even compared it with Weapon Focus, and saw that that was better than MG.

You're right, it doesn't matter because obviously whoever crunched those numbers is baked. Let's make a fighter, he's 9th level, has a 20 STR, is specialized, has improved crit and has a +2 mercurial greatsword. Then we make another fighter - this fighter is identical in every way to the munchkin greatsword wielder except that he uses a standard greatsword.

At minimum, the critical hit by the munchkin greatsword user will be 52 points (initiating a Fort Save 15 of die if you're using the death by massive damage rules) - this is not accounting for things like power attack being stacked on. The standard greatsword wielder does a minimum of 26 (half of what the munchkin does). Even a maxed out crit by the standard greatsword wielder only does 46 points, and an average crit by the standard greatsword wielder, backed by 5 points of power attack is only 44 points unless you're playing 3.5 rules, I guess.

The difference in crit damage, is, IMO, unbalanced. Where does the great axe figure into all of this? What's the point of even using a great axe when you can just use a munchkin greatsword? Oh, that's right! That one measley feat! LOL.

You should see a Lance-wielding, Spiritied-Charge-using, Rhino-Hide-wearing horse-rider - he'd terrify your group, apparently, and send you curling up in fetal throes of "broken!" "Munchkin!" "he can do that on EVERY charge attack?"

Not quite, snapperhead. First of all, mounted combat through dungeons and certain types of terrain doesn't always work, secondly, it takes three feats to make some sort Spirited Charge specialist. LOL. Not only that, a heavy lance does what, 1d8? PFFFTT!! So we take the same 9th level fighter as I mentioned above, set him up with feats, specialize him in lance, etc.. His minimal crits do 16 pts. more than the munchkin greatsword guy, sure, but on average the munchkin sword wielder is doing more damage because he's getting more attacks instead of a single charge attack each round. So how is this more of a nightmare than the munchkin great sword wielder? Puleeeze. Get a clue.

 

[Carceri]

I started this thread as a rant. This wasn't a thread asking "Help! What do I do about min/maxers?" I've been playing this game since 1984. Yes, I am an old school game geek. Not trying to be rude here, but it seems some people are starting to get just a little condescending with me. I don't need advice on how to deal with rules abusers, how to spot a munchkin, or even how to effectively challenge my players. It's a drag that I have to go to certain lengths to challenge my players based on one certain individual at times, but I can deal with it.

I can feel a flame war ensuing so I guess it's best I just shut up now before some feathers get ruffled.

Peace

Out

 

[Seule]

I think the correct rant (and one that I use occasionally) is against Power Critical. Particularly with any high multiplier weapon, it's a killer. A game I play in has a half-orc Paladin with a Great Axe. When she declares her Smite-Power Critical combo, things die. Similarly, a Mercurial Weapon or Scythe would be very deadly.
Basically, I have no intention of allowing Power Critical in any game I run. It's just not right. The character described above (MG wielder, Weaponmaster) would probably not be nearly as nasty without the ability to cause crits at will.

--Seule

 

[reapersaurus]

wow.
It's amazing how some people almost point out their errors by themselves, without us having to.

Before I point ouit what you're not understanding about D&D, Carceri - I'd like to state that you don't feel a flame war going on, because this board doesn't tolerate flame wars.

But you're new, so you wouldn't know that.

You also wouldn't know that in the rules forum, if you're going to claim something is broken or unbalanced, to be taken seriously, you'd better back up your claim with some numbers, and not just your experience, opinion, or testimonials.

So get some rest, lurk a bit more to understand where you are, and then enage in civil conversation about the rules issue at hand, please. I'll let your insulting words go, this time.
(note: I thought it quite illuminating how you thought you actually left before ruffling feathers)

About your oversight:
You seem to be under the impression that we are comparing crit damage.
We aren't.
We're comparing average damage.
When comparing average damage, you need to factor in the probabilities involved. And while this may be news to you, a 19-20 weapon crits more often than a x20 weapon.
Therefore, you need to calculate the average damage per weapon is, factoring in the % likelihood for a crit on any given roll (leave Power Crit out of these comparisons - it's a one-trick pony).

And guess what - these calculations HAVE been done, and the results by much better and able mathmeticians than me concluded that the MG is not out of balance with a greatsword, or other high-crit weapons.

But I don't see how you're going to understand this approach, since it is based on a non-biased, objective analysis of your statement, and not based on supposition, personal experience, and ignoring statistics.

It also doesn't matter how many people tell you this information, or how we tell it - you KNOW the MG is unbalanced, so don't listen to reason.

I'd suggest listening to your elders.