[Merged] Hackmaster reviews?

[Default Name Player]

You said "To be honest, the reviews section on this board isn' the end all/be all as it's made out to be." The implication of this is that, obviously, others feel that the reviews page is more praiseworthy than you do, elsewise how would you have come to the conclusion that it is "made out to be the end all and be all." That's something of an exagarration, I imagine, but still an indication that others praise it more highly than you think it deserves.

How else am I supposed to read that?

Um...that the reviews isn't the entire site? Just like the messageboard isn't the entire site? That the news section isn't the entire site? Sorry, but as I have to re-iterate again, that EN World is a "total experience". I still don't fathom how you're assuming just because I am saying that the reviews section is not the end all, be all of EN world that means that I am putting down the Reviews section.

Let me say this then: the message board is not the end all, be all of EN World
Also: the news section is not the end all, be all of EN World
Hey, I'll also add: D&D 3e is not the end all, be all of my interests

Still love the site though. Still love 3e too.

Do I think others find the reviews section "more praisworthy" than I do - why certainly, but that does not automatically put me on the opposite spectrum. While I "like the reviews section and like using it", someone else might "totally and utterly love it". Just because someone likes it MORE than the other person, that the "lesser" one actually...dislikes it? Nope, not at all.

Sorry, but the mentality that you're "with us or against us" is too simple of a categorization....or in this case, is it "Sure, you like it, but I like it more than you do?"

This is not to insult you or to infer anything, but I just wanted to pose this: perhaps "liking it more than the other person" is making you somewhat defensive on this topic? This does NOT (and I re-iterate that again) mean your opinion mean less, but that the presentation of said ideas can be somewhat...offputting.

So, how should you read what I'm saying? Well, I don't find any harm in having HM reviews. That's it. I'm not advocating having HM reviews to spite anyone, or anything, or to ruin this website (and I'm saying that ficticiously, and not insinuating anything with that remark - I'm being flippant). I thinks it's a nice addition, others think otherwise. Hey, whatever Morrus decides in the end is fine.

I'm not sure what else the above can insuinuate, but my intention from the beginning - and I'm stating this up front - is NOT to ruin the reviews section and NOT to insult you (perhaps me being flippant in certain cases doesn't help, or wasn't properly communicated). I guess that's as clear as I can make it.

Col Hardisson - My apologies for speaking out of line. I usual just lurk and avoid these kind of bickering, but...well, sometimes one just needs to speak up . It was not my intention to drag you into this again, nor make an insuination between you and Psion

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Col Hardisson - My apologies for speaking out of line. I usual just lurk and avoid these kind of bickering, but...well, sometimes one just needs to speak up . It was not my intention to drag you into this again, nor make an insuination between you and Psion

You didn't speak out of line at all. What you said was actually kinda funny to me. I just wanted to clarify my position, and you gave me the opportunity to do so.

 

[Blacksad]

My return question is:

Are Fading Sun, 7th Sea, L5r or ESD d20 products or based off of AD&D?

If any of them have an answer of "Yes." then they should be included. If all of them aRE "No.", then I would have to say you are trying to compare apples and oranges.

The ESD (Electronic Software Download), are the PDF version of all AD&D and D&D books prior to 3rd edition, there is literally hundred of them.

So Yes for ESD

and No for Fading Sun, L5R, and 7th Sea, though:

for Fading Sun, Holistic reprint some of its book and dual stat them

AEG refer L5R book in Rokugan, and we might see the same thing for swashbuckling adventures, plus like hackmaster, you can find conversion of Roll and Keep to d20 for those product.

PS: Considering the origin of RPG, you might say that all RPG are D&D based

 

[Tsyr]

PS: Considering the origin of RPG, you might say that all RPG are D&D based

If you tried to seriously make that point I would have no choice but to smack you upside the noggin with a sock full of live badgers.

 

[Blacksad]

If you tried to seriously make that point I would have no choice but to smack you upside the noggin with a sock full of live badgers.

I wouldn't dare

But I tend to consider that some games have less variation from AD&D 1st edition than the current 3rd edition has, i.e. Paladium system: the robotech game has profieciency for pickpocket and open lock!, or some fantasy game that wished to patch AD&D.

I seriously doubt that Hackmaster will provide me with more usable content than any other game that are rip off of AD&D, that's why I don't want to see them in the database (at least the ESD provide backround for campaign setting available in 3rd edition).

PS: Alternity might be something to consider also, it does have AD&D to Alternity conversion rule inside the Gamemaster Guide.

 

[rounser]

I seriously doubt that Hackmaster will provide me with more usable content than any other game that are rip off of AD&D, that's why I don't want to see them in the database (at least the ESD provide backround for campaign setting available in 3rd edition).

d20 Hacklopedia monster conversions...early days, not much there yet.

Hackmaster can provide background for D&D 3E campaigns in the same way ESDs from past editions do - have a look at the modules.

If you're looking at running, say, Keep on the Borderlands for 3E, and are refusing to look at the related modules Return to the Keep on the Borderlands and Little Keep on the Borderlands for extra material and ideas because of what edition or variation of D&D they're from...well, that's up to you I guess. You'd be missing out, IMO, though.

 

[Darkness]

...sock full of live badgers.

Unless you have pretty big feet, there won't fit too many badgers into a sock!

 

[Blacksad]

d20 Hacklopedia monster conversions...early days, not much there yet.

Conversion, are just that, conversion, you can find some for other system, including palladium on the net. An unpublished conversion doesn't make a d20 product.

Hackmaster can provide background for D&D 3E campaigns in the same way ESDs from past editions do - have a look at the modules.

Sure, like you can find 250 pages backround material for just a region of the Forgotten Realms?

If you're looking at running, say, Keep on the Borderlands for 3E, and are refusing to look at the related modules Return to the Keep on the Borderlands and Little Keep on the Borderlands for extra material and ideas because of what edition or variation of D&D they're from...well, that's up to you I guess. You'd be missing out, IMO, though.

Those are now generic modules, right? so no greyhawk or FR, I do not consider an adventure to represent backround for a campaign setting. An introduction to a setting perhaps, like Witchfire or Freeport, but not backround material.

After all GG did a conversion for d20 of one of its lejendary adventure, so why shouldn't we include the lejendary book in the reviews? They could provide additional material for the adventure.

or perhaps making a review of the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil web enhancement?

Ok, I'm silly, but I do not consider additional materail for an adventure to be backround material, if you can show me a supplement with backround for a published, or rumored soon to be published setting in 3rd edition, I'll change my mind.

 

[rounser]

palladium

They don't have an AD&D license, nor do they have the "AD&D core rules as a basic engine that everything Hackmaster...could be plugged into." Hackmaster uses large wodges of AD&D text and intellectual property unchanged. Look at the druid spells in the PHB, for instance - they're lifted verbatim from AD&D, as is the guts and the majority of the "flavour crunch" (spells, monsters etc.) of the rest of the system.

It's an (A)D&D variant, using, from what I gather, all pre-3E (A)D&D intellectual property (including settings, modules, rulesets etc.) under a special license, and is in that respect unique. D&D clones have to reinvent the wheel. Unless WotC goes mad and gives everyone else a license to all of the (A)D&D intellectual property as well, it's likely to be one of a kind. If it's restricted to (A)D&D editions and variants, there is no slippery slope...the buck stops right there if you want it to.

Perhaps my differentiation between a D&D variant and a D&D clone is silly to some of you. So be it - this thread is a nitpicker's delight.

Those are now generic modules, right?

The original Keep didn't have a setting, originally belonging to all D&D worlds and none, but was retrospectively plonked down in Mystara. Return to the Keep on the Borderlands was supposed to fit into Greyhawk, but flies in the face of GH canon, and was largely rejected by the GH fanbase without alteration - it too exists in limbo IMO. Little Keep on the Borderlands fits into Garweeze Wurld, making allusions to the original Keep. As a tribute like the Return, it is arguably more "about" the original Keep than the setting it's in.

I do not consider additional materail for an adventure to be backround material

Maybe. Some people are more interested in running Scourge of the Slavelords or Against the Giants (both of have had Returns, and which are getting HM tributes too) than they are in running Greyhawk, though. You could even argue that the cumulative footprint of Greyhawk's classic modules dwarfs the significance of the setting itself...

 

[Blacksad]

It's an (A)D&D variant, using (A)D&D intellectual property under a special license, and is in that respect unique. D&D clones have to reinvent the wheel. Unless WotC goes mad and gives everyone else a license to all of the (A)D&D intellectual property as well, it's likely to be one of a kind. There is no slippery slope...the buck stops here.

Lets put D&D cluedo in the review section!
It's using D&D intellectual property

If you're seriously trying to argue that
a) The only ESDs of worth to 3E players are setting fluff ones.
b) Adventure material doesn't constitute background material.
c) Hackmaster's material is only of worth to D&D players if it's designed to plug directly into a 3E setting.
...I'll be begging to differ a bit.

a)No
b)Yes
c)No

So we differ only on b)

Many ESD are useful and could provide idea, material to build 3D cities (print, cut, glue).
You can find useful material in the gamemaster guide of Jovian Chronicles for any campaign.
But I don't think that hackmaster books are more useful than any of those.

On b) an adventure set in a campaign can contains additional material for a backround, but an adventure per se doesn't provide backround, just events IMHO.

On the other hand, perhaps my differentiation between a D&D variant and a D&D clone is silly to some of you. So be it - this thread is a nitpicker's delight.

Personally I love it