[Merged] Hackmaster reviews?
- Thread starter JoeGKushner
- Start date
Default Name Player
First Post
Gah, alot of this arguing seems like one fringe group vs. another fringe group.
I bet there's alot of us in the middle who:
- like both games
- like one of the games, oblivious/ignores the other
Only the "fringers" would actually "hate" another game because...well, it's a game and "hating" a game is pretty silly.
Personally, I like both systems:
d20: an excellent current iteration of one of my favorite games
Hackmaster: reminds me of my 1e "roots" plus fuels my love for the "Knights of the Dinner Table" comic. Haven't played it yet, though.
As for reviews of Hackmaster on this site, IMO: I'm all for it.
- First, it's Morrus' site and whatever he says will stay or go, and I'd be okay with whatever he rules
- Second, this site does say that it's a "D&D/d20 system" on the front of the site. You can argue that it's D&D AND d20 or D&D d20 only (in that case, alot of the other d20 stuff like Star Wars, CoC d20, etc. will have to be expunged). One might argue that Hackmaster isn't D&D...well, maybe it's just me, but it's derived from the D&D 1e rules (w/ a steriod injection), and is probably one of the more acessible ways to play 1e again (other than hunting down the original books)
- Third, if we're going to go all hard core about this (the site being strictly d20), then perhaps the following needs to be done as well:
a. No OT posts of any kind because it's not d20 or D&D related
b. A total revamp of Fight Club, Marketplace, D&D software
c. Elimination of the non-RPG specific forums
d. Removal of Story Hour. Technically, there's no "d20" stuff in it. Sure it's stories derived from a d20 game, or derived from a D&D game...oh, isn't Hackmaster derived from D&D 1e?
(d) is stretching it a bit, but as you can see, we're already playing it pretty "loose" on this board and why not? We're here to discuss a game that we're suppose to have fun with. If the HM reviews poses a problem, just remove them or re-categorize them as "D&D derivative" or something like that.
To be honest, the reviews section on this board isn' the end all/be all as it's made out to be: I'm not trying to put down the reviewers, but there's a larger experience to be felt on this site, and reviews is but one component of that experience.
I bet there's alot of us in the middle who:
- like both games
- like one of the games, oblivious/ignores the other
Only the "fringers" would actually "hate" another game because...well, it's a game and "hating" a game is pretty silly.
Personally, I like both systems:
d20: an excellent current iteration of one of my favorite games
Hackmaster: reminds me of my 1e "roots" plus fuels my love for the "Knights of the Dinner Table" comic. Haven't played it yet, though.
As for reviews of Hackmaster on this site, IMO: I'm all for it.
- First, it's Morrus' site and whatever he says will stay or go, and I'd be okay with whatever he rules
- Second, this site does say that it's a "D&D/d20 system" on the front of the site. You can argue that it's D&D AND d20 or D&D d20 only (in that case, alot of the other d20 stuff like Star Wars, CoC d20, etc. will have to be expunged). One might argue that Hackmaster isn't D&D...well, maybe it's just me, but it's derived from the D&D 1e rules (w/ a steriod injection), and is probably one of the more acessible ways to play 1e again (other than hunting down the original books)
- Third, if we're going to go all hard core about this (the site being strictly d20), then perhaps the following needs to be done as well:
a. No OT posts of any kind because it's not d20 or D&D related
b. A total revamp of Fight Club, Marketplace, D&D software
c. Elimination of the non-RPG specific forums
d. Removal of Story Hour. Technically, there's no "d20" stuff in it. Sure it's stories derived from a d20 game, or derived from a D&D game...oh, isn't Hackmaster derived from D&D 1e?
(d) is stretching it a bit, but as you can see, we're already playing it pretty "loose" on this board and why not? We're here to discuss a game that we're suppose to have fun with. If the HM reviews poses a problem, just remove them or re-categorize them as "D&D derivative" or something like that.
To be honest, the reviews section on this board isn' the end all/be all as it's made out to be: I'm not trying to put down the reviewers, but there's a larger experience to be felt on this site, and reviews is but one component of that experience.
Tsyr
Explorer
Psion said:
If you speak of Morrus' branch of the site before he inhereted the "Eric Noah Site" community, it was (and for that matter if you look at the reviews page, still it) called "d20reviews". Not helping your argument too much there.
Was I making an argument over something there? I was just pointing out an error.
You know my stance on the issue, Psion, and it hasn't changed. But I'm also confining that particular fight to META where I think it belongs, not here.
Psion
Adventurer
Default Name Player said:
It's not about what we like or don't like. I don't hate HM nor the people who play it. I like games other than d20. I even have a copy of the Hackmaster GM guide and consider it an interesting reference.
It's a matter of focus. The d20 reviews site is where d20 fans come when they want d20 reviews. You compromise that focus, you are doing the fans a disservice, IMO.
There are other review sites dedicated to a more general audience. The d20 reviews site just isn't it.
So it is with me. But Morrus recognizes the input of the board members and will hear their opinions. That is in part why he went back to the original style of news on the front page. Those of us who find hackmaster out of place have a right to voice our opinions. I will not sit idly by and bite my tongue while I see the reviews page diluted.
It's not just you. But many of us here disagree with you, me cheif among them. The name of the reviews page is "d20 reviews." Until yesterday, everything on the reviews page was something that stemmed forth from the d20 system or one of its variants... something that you could set in front of your players and they know the basic mechanisms, there is a different substrate.
HM is a monumental peice of work. But it's just not on that team.
This is Reductio Ad Absurdum, a composition fallacy, and creating a false dichotomy. Nothing says that we can't keep HM out of the reviews page and allow it in the forums; they are different venues with different dynamics.
You assume that just because I make the case that we should not include hackmaster in the reviews, I am saying that the same argument applies to ENWorld in general. I, for one, am not making that case. We discuss many games here that are not d20 (note the recent SAS discussions, etc.)
I am not arguing that we should exclude Hackmaster reviews to exclude Hackmaster fans from ENWorld in general. I am arguing that we should exclude Hackmaster reviews because it undermines the intent and integrity of the d20 reviews page itself. I see little harm in HM discussions here (in the forums), so long as it doesn't significantly affect the S/N ratio here (in which case, it should be afforded its own forum here, much like non-D&D d20 system games had their own forum made when they became too much of a distraction.)
I'm sorry you don't find value in it. Many do. That's all the more reason you should reserve statement upon how the reviews page is handled. Just because you don't care for the reviews page does not mean you should spoil it for those who do.
Last edited:
baakyocalder
First Post
Hacklopedias Yes Because Conversion in Progress
You should permit Hackmaster reviews on ENWorld.
1. Hackmaster, though a variant form of D&D, has material that you might want to use in your campaign. Having an idea of what's in a Hackmaster book might help you as a GM or a player come up with some way to make the game more fun. For example, Hackmaster has a full Honor system which the recent article on Knights in Dragon #299 (the Knights and Chivalry issue) uses in a different manner. There's also magic item stats in 2e terms for many of the items that appeared in KODT. The background tables in the Spellslinger's Guide to Wurld Domination are good for thinking about life at a magic academy as is the section on spellware in that book. So reason one for Hackmaster reviews is: you may want to borrow stuff and it's better to borrow if you know what to look for.
2. Anthony Roberson is working on an official project to convert the 1600+ Hacklopedia of Beast monsters into 3e compatible monsters. This is found at www.hacklopedia.com
Wouldn't it be nice to know what's in the Hacklopedias so you can suggest to Anthony and the other folks which monsters you'd like to see converted first?
Also, the Hacklopedias have a block that's not in 2e and to my knowledge not in 3e: Yield. Basically, you kill the critter and that's what its body is good for. Like the dragon hide can make magic armor and dragon blood baths keep you from aging.
Basically, you're missing a big chance to get other ideas on how to run your 3e or d20 game by completely excluding Hackmaster.
But this is a d20 site, so not every Hackmaster product is essential to the reviews. If you just permitted reviews of the Hacklopedia of Beasts volumes, that would be helpful to d20 players since the conversion is free.
You should permit Hackmaster reviews on ENWorld.
1. Hackmaster, though a variant form of D&D, has material that you might want to use in your campaign. Having an idea of what's in a Hackmaster book might help you as a GM or a player come up with some way to make the game more fun. For example, Hackmaster has a full Honor system which the recent article on Knights in Dragon #299 (the Knights and Chivalry issue) uses in a different manner. There's also magic item stats in 2e terms for many of the items that appeared in KODT. The background tables in the Spellslinger's Guide to Wurld Domination are good for thinking about life at a magic academy as is the section on spellware in that book. So reason one for Hackmaster reviews is: you may want to borrow stuff and it's better to borrow if you know what to look for.
2. Anthony Roberson is working on an official project to convert the 1600+ Hacklopedia of Beast monsters into 3e compatible monsters. This is found at www.hacklopedia.com
Wouldn't it be nice to know what's in the Hacklopedias so you can suggest to Anthony and the other folks which monsters you'd like to see converted first?
Also, the Hacklopedias have a block that's not in 2e and to my knowledge not in 3e: Yield. Basically, you kill the critter and that's what its body is good for. Like the dragon hide can make magic armor and dragon blood baths keep you from aging.
Basically, you're missing a big chance to get other ideas on how to run your 3e or d20 game by completely excluding Hackmaster.
But this is a d20 site, so not every Hackmaster product is essential to the reviews. If you just permitted reviews of the Hacklopedia of Beasts volumes, that would be helpful to d20 players since the conversion is free.
HackMaster Reviews
Maybe having a non-d20 product in the top 20, which would be unlikely, would be pointing you to something else you would like, since the top 20 apparently is your guidepost?
But, seriously, HackMaster product is very usable for d20 games, just lower the hit points of any creastures/npcs by 20, and it is virtually identical to AD&D2E material.
And HackMaster is essentially a cleaned up and better balanced version of AD&D, and as such, fully compatible with AD&D3E products.
Obviously, however, if a majority of the registered users of ENWorld feel that HM is inappropriate, it should go. However, if it is just a vocal minority, than it should stay. Maybe a poll would be a good idea, as long as it would be understood that the poll would need to have a significant number of people taking it to count. No having 5 "No"s and 3 "Yes"s be considered conclusive if that is not at least 50% of the registered members.
Just my suggestion.
Blacksad said:
Maybe having a non-d20 product in the top 20, which would be unlikely, would be pointing you to something else you would like, since the top 20 apparently is your guidepost?
But, seriously, HackMaster product is very usable for d20 games, just lower the hit points of any creastures/npcs by 20, and it is virtually identical to AD&D2E material.
And HackMaster is essentially a cleaned up and better balanced version of AD&D, and as such, fully compatible with AD&D3E products.
Obviously, however, if a majority of the registered users of ENWorld feel that HM is inappropriate, it should go. However, if it is just a vocal minority, than it should stay. Maybe a poll would be a good idea, as long as it would be understood that the poll would need to have a significant number of people taking it to count. No having 5 "No"s and 3 "Yes"s be considered conclusive if that is not at least 50% of the registered members.
Just my suggestion.
Blacksad
Explorer
To find non-d20 content that I might want to borrow for my games I have the GROG.
http://www.roliste.com/
Other have RPG.net
This website allowed me to find review for the book of the shadowland, and bearer of jade for Rokugan. Almost non-system specific books, and with strong tie with a ENnie winner setting.
It was through RPG.net that I decided to buy Jovian Chronicle Stuff.
I'm not unaware of non-d20 product, so thanks, no needs to educate me on the subject.
But if hackmaster is included, I do not see why Fading Sun, 7th Sea, L5R, and ESD aren't included.
That's my opinion.
http://www.roliste.com/
Other have RPG.net
This website allowed me to find review for the book of the shadowland, and bearer of jade for Rokugan. Almost non-system specific books, and with strong tie with a ENnie winner setting.
It was through RPG.net that I decided to buy Jovian Chronicle Stuff.
I'm not unaware of non-d20 product, so thanks, no needs to educate me on the subject.
But if hackmaster is included, I do not see why Fading Sun, 7th Sea, L5R, and ESD aren't included.
That's my opinion.
Corinth
First Post
Furthermore, D&D is only a subset of D20. It's part of a greater whole which includes: Star Wars, Call of Cthulhu, Judge Dredd, Slaine, Deeds Not Words, Four Colors To Fantasy, Silver Age Sentinels, Mutants & Masterminds, Pulp Heroes, Omega World, Thunderball Rally, Mecha Crusade, D20 Modern, Fading Suns, Dragonstar, Wheel of Time, Brontosaurus Rex, Deadlands, Weird Wars, Godlike, Everquest, The End, Sidewinder, Spycraft, 7th Sea and Rokugan.
That's a lot of non-D&D D20 product out there, and there's more coming to the gaming community every month. What's to come after D20 Modern comes will a truly explosive period of D20 growth, and D&D's place amongst the greater whole will finally become one of being first amongst equals. D&D is D20, but D20 is not D&D. That's why this site is D20 first, D&D second (no matter how close a second that is).
That's a lot of non-D&D D20 product out there, and there's more coming to the gaming community every month. What's to come after D20 Modern comes will a truly explosive period of D20 growth, and D&D's place amongst the greater whole will finally become one of being first amongst equals. D&D is D20, but D20 is not D&D. That's why this site is D20 first, D&D second (no matter how close a second that is).
Mortaneus
First Post
Psion said:
I personally enjoy the reviews page. It's much better than RPGnet, and it's on a site I'm confortable with.
However,
This site is not some sacred cow that will be irrevocably tainted by acknowledging the presence of other games. I think you're taking the whole thing WAY too seriously.
Yes, the reviews are important, and people make decisions based upon them. Do I think reviewing HM will have any affect at all upon the "integrity" of this site? No.
The integrity of the reviews page is based upon the quality of the reviews posted there, not upon the subject of those reviews.
And, btw, if someone looks at the top 10 list and buys something from it without even researching the book, then they deserve what they get.
Heck, even if you keep it within d20 you've got a problem. D&D is largely incompatible with SAS, and with the Everquest RPG. All three are d20.
If someone goes and buys them, seeing them on the d20 list, and expects to be able to drop them in any old d20 game, then they're in for a shock, d20 or not.
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