D&D 5E Merlin and Arthur or Batman and zatana

[Voadam]

I don’t know how to adapt the game to solve the narrative utility of non caster classes.

I would generally be in favor of the Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG style approach.

In there the supernatural Slayer role is powerful and awesome at combat and durable, etc.

The Witch is powerful and flexible with magic.

Everybody else in the group are normal people who get a bunch of hero points or whatever they are called. They do normal people type stuff but the hero points give them some ability to mechanically pull through and/or narratively have things work out for them.

In D&D if the non magic classes had a pool of resources to narratively but non magically accomplish things I think it would be great. If rogues and fighters could get bonuses on saves or attack rolls or skills that magic types don't it would help balance them. If they got nonmagical narrative plot abilities of things working for them (perhaps rogues could flashback to the prep they did, or to define some useful appropriate environmental elements of a scene, or whatever) it could be a balancing power for them.

I really liked the 4e martial powers, but those were generally designed to be balanced against magical powers designed for the same combat power. For nonmagical utility powers I think plot and mechanical meta currencies could be a good way for D&D non 4e martials to keep up with the utility of D&D magic classes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

it makes as much sense as anything else. I don't ask "how did batman dodge Darkseids undodgeable attack" I pump my arm and go "Yes" when he does. I don't ask "how did dare devil jump off a 5 story parking garage and tumble inside the 2nd story and not get hurt" I say "Awesome" I don't ask "how did that fighter challenge 4 orcs make them charge and then hit them all" I say "NICE!"

The how can be cool (especially if you have a cool explanation all set) but if it's just 'that's how it works' that is fine by me too.

way back in 2e I had a player jump from 1 air ship to another but fail, and fall almost 100ft... back then the DM ruled it was 10d10 damage, and the roll was in the 40s... the character was a 6th level fighter and had in the 40s for hp (we had not adopted max at 1st level yet for hp) and was left with 1 or 2 hp left... he got up cracked his neck and yelled up for a rope. I didn't ask "wait how does someone fall 100ft and feel okay enough to not only get right up but then to climb back up that 100ft?" I was excited "yes, awesome you didn't die"

not so far back in 3.5 when I played a warblade (a super high level one) I had a maneuver that added 100pts of damage on a hit (I think it had to be melee) and I had a stance that added a d6 to damage but I took a -2 to AC. I got hit with a baleful polymorph and that gives 2 saves 1 to negate the physical change (I failed that) and 1 to keep your mental abilities (I made that...with a nat 20 no less) so I got turned into a helpless bunny. I asked the DM "My maneuvers are all training so I remember them right" and his answer was "Yes so on your turn you can iron heart surge out of this"... that isn't what I did though... I was still in my stance I jumped up and kicked the mage. I bearly hit (new str sucked) and did 1d3-5+100+1d6 damage... and no one worried that it was weird the table erupted in laughter and hoots and howlers as my little bunny kicked the head off the mage... I actually threatened to stay in bunny form the rest of the dungeon as a joke... but I did Iron Heart surge back to normal after the fight.

in 4e I was the DM when a player as a fighter activated an aura 2 ability that said anyone that started in the aura took 1w damage (in his case 1d10 reroll 1s +3) and then did come and get it and pulled 5 enemies on to him hit some missed some... but marked all of them... then they started there turn in range and took damage... I and my players loved it.

So you're saying you don't care how. That's fine for you, but I want an explanation. Less so in a superhero game, but certainly in D&D.

 

[Umbran]

If you think powers are the only thing that makes a hero, then you need to hear AQUAMAN'S ROUSING SONG OF HEROISM!!!

That was marvelous!

I mean, not MARVEL-ous, because Namor is cool while Aquaman... well, is Aquaman.

edit: and aquaman can be the bard I guess

Oh, you shouldn't have said that...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So you're saying you don't care how. That's fine for you, but I want an explanation. Less so in a superhero game, but certainly in D&D.

okay, so that's fine I just don't care. I want heroes doing hero things. I want every character at every level to have option equal to or at least close to other characters at the same level. Make the difference thematic not power or # of options.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

This problem about characters from fiction being adapted into a game doesn't happen only in the rpg hobby, but mainly in the videogames.

Any solution? To create an alternate continuity where all characters are nerfed or buffed for a right power balance in the gameplay, for example DC characters in the videogames Injustice, Multiversus, or that cancelled MOBA.

In the wuxia fiction like "Tiger & Dragon" where martial artists can jump over the trees, they aren't spellcasters in the same way than D&D but they aren't too different either. They chanell chi/ki/life-force for those spell-like effects.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

for example DC characters in the videogames Injustice, Multiversus, or that cancelled MOBA.

right no one wants superman to be invulnerable in a fighting game... or he is just the default everyone plays...

many years ago (back when I played video games) there was talk of a true invulnerable superman game. With minor exceptions no one could deal damage to you... but the city had a bar and if you didn't defend the city enough the game would end as 'game over' I don't think it ever got made but it sounded like it would be great

 

[Micah Sweet]

okay, so that's fine I just don't care. I want heroes doing hero things. I want every character at every level to have option equal to or at least close to other characters at the same level. Make the difference thematic not power or # of options.

I want those things too, if you find a way to have them make sense in the fiction. "Just because" doesn't work for me.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I want those things too, if you find a way to have them make sense in the fiction. "Just because" doesn't work for me.

it does for me...

"I trained so hard at studying my sword play that I can sometimes cut things that can't be cut, and sometimes I can through force of will negate magical effects on me, and sometimes I can channel my inner strength to hit harder and faster, and sometimes I can shrug off lethal blows" all sounds fine to me...
"I trained so well at the ninja warrior camp* that I can climb on walls like a spider with just my finger tips on holds, and I can jump 3x farther then a normal guy my size and strenght" doesn't bug me either
"I trained so well I can shut my eyes and tell you what way is north" not an issue
"i trained so well that I can tell when people are moving invisible around me if I concentrate" seems a okay
"I can divert the flow of rivers after years of adventures utilizing my strength and training but it takes so much out of me I can only do it once per day" is good for me

 

[Krachek]

I would generally be in favor of the Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG style approach.

In there the supernatural Slayer role is powerful and awesome at combat and durable, etc.

The Witch is powerful and flexible with magic.

Everybody else in the group are normal people who get a bunch of hero points or whatever they are called. They do normal people type stuff but the hero points give them some ability to mechanically pull through and/or narratively have things work out for them.

In D&D if the non magic classes had a pool of resources to narratively but non magically accomplish things I think it would be great. If rogues and fighters could get bonuses on saves or attack rolls or skills that magic types don't it would help balance them. If they got nonmagical narrative plot abilities of things working for them (perhaps rogues could flashback to the prep they did, or to define some useful appropriate environmental elements of a scene, or whatever) it could be a balancing power for them.

I really liked the 4e martial powers, but those were generally designed to be balanced against magical powers designed for the same combat power. For nonmagical utility powers I think plot and mechanical meta currencies could be a good way for D&D non 4e martials to keep up with the utility of D&D magic classes.

I won’t speak for other games, but in DnD fighter already have some help to get better at skills. Battle master has some maneuvers that can be applied to skill, new subclass often include an extra skill, and the extra feat the fighter get at 6 and 14 can be applied on skill improvement.
Surely 1DnD can make some additional improvement for that too.

But the main recurring complaint is always about « magic » that turn the tide of an encounter of any kind, and that fighter don’t have access to tide turning abilities.

Rerolling a skill or a save won’t ever compete to Wall of force, or a wild shape usage.
If I want to compete with Wall of force, I need a Wall of force, disguise it into a Plot point, a martial feat, or any other cinematic name, if I do tide turning ability, I have pass on the dark side and I’m now a magic user.

And that is not a bad thing, if the game need Fighter that do supernatural thing, just make it.
For now the fighter in 5ed is still a normal guy than stand aside supernatural characters.
Hopefully game mechanics make the fighter one of the best in damage dealing in combat, so
his place is somehow valuable. But if the game want him to stay a normal guy he can’t make supernatural move.

 

[Voadam]

I won’t speak for other games, but in DnD fighter already have some help to get better at skills. Battle master has some maneuvers that can be applied to skill, new subclass often include an extra skill, and the extra feat the fighter get at 6 and 14 can be applied on skill improvement.

Also extra ASIs. I thought that was a nice little design for giving fighters a little bump that magic classes don't, particularly with the way 5e bound accuracy ability scores tie into saving throws and skills.

It is not much, but it is something.