D&D 5E Merlin and Arthur or Batman and zatana

[Krachek]

I don’t know how to adapt the game to solve the narrative utility of non caster classes.

Remove all utility spells and power. No more flying, wild shape, suggestion, unless having a restrained combat utility. For the narrative utility use only skills, which bring us into the 4ed model. Combat or skill challenge. Been tried. Not a success!

Giving supernatural power to martial class don’t seem a solution for many.

Nerf casters look like a easy solution, but what if a table dont use that much social and exploration encounter where caster prove their superior narrative utility. We will create the reverse problem, if you don’t have enough social or exploration encounter don’t play caster you won’t have enough utility in combat to compensate.

The game per se don’t dictate a percentage of combat, exploration or social encounters.
And the game don’t give any clue about how important on ressource, time play, those encounters should be. We know we have three pillars, but not restraint on how to use them.

for now I see no solution.

But what I interpret in the comments is sometimes a stubborn to use all the game when a smaller scope can fit better the expectation.
Some classes don’t fit your game, don’t use them.
High level spells screw your adventure, limit the level of your players into a smaller range.
Surely we can hope for a better game, but we don’t have to endure any pain just to make sure we use all material.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I remember being frustrated that Green Arrow's role in the comic I was reading seemed to be normal human sidekick who makes quips instead of meaningfully contributing member of the super team in the super team story. His biggest usefulness to the team was drawing some attacks and attention from bad guys.

As comic books characters, they get remade time and time again. For an awesome version of Green Arrow, may I suggest Justice League Unlimited??

 

[Chaosmancer]

You give them abilities equal but different, Batman gets to survive a superman punch and gets to knock down wonder woman and steal GLs ring... he just gets to be 'that good' that he is one of the top 10 power houses. He doesn't 'get super powers' his just awesomeness gets turned up to fit the story.

Your right as it is right now the fighter and rogue (and monk and some variants of ranger) just are not up to par with full casters... but in the stories warriors ARE as awesome as equals.

And they are as awesome as equals BECAUSE they are allowed special powers.

This is the fundamental disconnect. You keep trying to claim that surviving a punch from Superman that can split planets isn't super durability, it comes from "just being that awesome" but that makes no sense. "Being Awesome" doesn't give you the ability to survive what you cannot survive. The reason I am harping on this is because if you keep trying to limit things like this, your end result will leave these classes right back where they currently are. "You are Awesome (for a normal person)"

This is part of why I think we should steal so much more from Eastern Traditions for our Fantasy games. Because "I just trained" is a legitmate way to get super strength, to get super durability, to get the ability to shapeshift, or to shoot fire. "You are so highly trained, you gain super powers" is a thing that makes sense. But claiming you have no super powers while demonstrating super powers makes no sense, and it limits us.

King Arthur was just a normal man... who could turn bricks of gold into powder with his bare hands and shatter castle walls with a single blow. He had super strength. Let the martials have super powers, not "I'm olympic level" super powers. Straight up "this is impossible, but I'm doing it anyways" levels of super powers. And admit they are powers, so that people can't claim that having them makes no sense, because you don't have powers.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don’t know how to adapt the game to solve the narrative utility of non caster classes.

Remove all utility spells and power. No more flying, wild shape, suggestion, unless having a restrained combat utility. For the narrative utility use only skills, which bring us into the 4ed model. Combat or skill challenge. Been tried. Not a success!

Giving supernatural power to martial class don’t seem a solution for many.

Nerf casters look like a easy solution, but what if a table dont use that much social and exploration encounter where caster prove their superior narrative utility. We will create the reverse problem, if you don’t have enough social or exploration encounter don’t play caster you won’t have enough utility in combat to compensate.

The game per se don’t dictate a percentage of combat, exploration or social encounters.
And the game don’t give any clue about how important on ressource, time play, those encounters should be. We know we have three pillars, but not restraint on how to use them.

for now I see no solution.

But what I interpret in the comments is sometimes a stubborn to use all the game when a smaller scope can fit better the expectation.
Some classes don’t fit your game, don’t use them.
High level spells screw your adventure, limit the level of your players into a smaller range.
Surely we can hope for a better game, but we don’t have to endure any pain just to make sure we use all material.

I agree that nerfing casters is a bad solution. Not only does it present the problems you list, but there is also the problem that nerfing things people enjoy never seems to lead to anyone being happy.

But that is also why I'm pushing so hard to get it recognized that, at a certain point, it needs to be supernatural power. Because that is the only way to compete with supernatural abilities. It is true out of combat, and it is true in combat. The classical example being Wall of Force. If a Wizard casts Wall of Force, another wizard has multiple ways to counter that ability and stay in the fight. A martial is just out of the fight until they either lose or the caster decides to let them out.

I think the more we can get people to recognize that many of the high-level figures from mythology WERE supernatural to a degree, the easier it will be to begin closing the gap.

 

[Krachek]

I agree that nerfing casters is a bad solution. Not only does it present the problems you list, but there is also the problem that nerfing things people enjoy never seems to lead to anyone being happy.

But that is also why I'm pushing so hard to get it recognized that, at a certain point, it needs to be supernatural power. Because that is the only way to compete with supernatural abilities. It is true out of combat, and it is true in combat. The classical example being Wall of Force. If a Wizard casts Wall of Force, another wizard has multiple ways to counter that ability and stay in the fight. A martial is just out of the fight until they either lose or the caster decides to let them out.

I think the more we can get people to recognize that many of the high-level figures from mythology WERE supernatural to a degree, the easier it will be to begin closing the gap.

I agree!

Reading this thread and your post I wonder if the solution to avoid the problem is not worst than the problem.
We got the Wall of force guy, and the normal guy.
We live with that!

Otherwise we either make the wall of force, not so magic and effective, letting a normal guy break it with normal strength,
Or give the equivalent of wall of force to the normal guy pretending it’s just a normal thing.

In this both solution I don’t see real improvement, just a shifting problem.

I go back to my first view. we live with that.
If I cant afford to be a normal guy surrounded by flying guy, I play a flying guy.

 

[Voadam]

King Arthur was just a normal man... who could turn bricks of gold into powder with his bare hands and shatter castle walls with a single blow. He had super strength.

?

 

[Micah Sweet]

And they are as awesome as equals BECAUSE they are allowed special powers.

This is the fundamental disconnect. You keep trying to claim that surviving a punch from Superman that can split planets isn't super durability, it comes from "just being that awesome" but that makes no sense. "Being Awesome" doesn't give you the ability to survive what you cannot survive. The reason I am harping on this is because if you keep trying to limit things like this, your end result will leave these classes right back where they currently are. "You are Awesome (for a normal person)"

This is part of why I think we should steal so much more from Eastern Traditions for our Fantasy games. Because "I just trained" is a legitmate way to get super strength, to get super durability, to get the ability to shapeshift, or to shoot fire. "You are so highly trained, you gain super powers" is a thing that makes sense. But claiming you have no super powers while demonstrating super powers makes no sense, and it limits us.

King Arthur was just a normal man... who could turn bricks of gold into powder with his bare hands and shatter castle walls with a single blow. He had super strength. Let the martials have super powers, not "I'm olympic level" super powers. Straight up "this is impossible, but I'm doing it anyways" levels of super powers. And admit they are powers, so that people can't claim that having them makes no sense, because you don't have powers.

When did King Arthur do that? Is there a story I haven't read?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

And they are as awesome as equals BECAUSE they are allowed special powers.

yes special martial abilities that are not supernatural or magic... but equal to there partners.

This is the fundamental disconnect. You keep trying to claim that surviving a punch from Superman that can split planets isn't super durability, it comes from "just being that awesome" but that makes no sense.

except it does... heck that is the 1 part D&D gets right super durability and just being a high level non caster is the 1 thing you get a ton of HP

"Being Awesome" doesn't give you the ability to survive what you cannot survive.

in fantasy stories it does all the time... and in our games... again I can get hit in the face with 3 crits from a giant axe and be fine...

The reason I am harping on this is because if you keep trying to limit things like this, your end result will leave these classes right back where they currently are. "You are Awesome (for a normal person)"

Just to be clear, you think me saying that "in fantasy and mythology everyone in the team that would be PCs are equals or atlest real close, and the 'normal' people still do amazing superhuman impossible things" will somehow lead to not letting us upgrade fighter?

This is part of why I think we should steal so much more from Eastern Traditions for our Fantasy games. Because "I just trained" is a legitmate way to get super strength, to get super durability, to get the ability to shapeshift, or to shoot fire.

I don't mind that. I have pushed for the last 5 years to have Ex and Sn powers in fighter. I just think that "I learned mountain hammer, or foe hammer, and now I can 1/encounter (short rest) ignore resitence with my attacks" is the bare bones bar is in hell minimum.

"You are so highly trained, you gain super powers" is a thing that makes sense. But claiming you have no super powers while demonstrating super powers makes no sense, and it limits us.

calling them super powers is what keeps being said over and over again stops them from happening... So when I point out Batman (and all his family of heroes) and Hawkeye and Green Arrow don't have super powers they just are 'that good' it's important.

King Arthur was just a normal man... who could turn bricks of gold into powder with his bare hands and shatter castle walls with a single blow. He had super strength. Let the martials have super powers, not "I'm olympic level" super powers. Straight up "this is impossible, but I'm doing it anyways" levels of super powers. And admit they are powers, so that people can't claim that having them makes no sense, because you don't have powers.

 

[Micah Sweet]

yes special martial abilities that are not supernatural or magic... but equal to there partners.

except it does... heck that is the 1 part D&D gets right super durability and just being a high level non caster is the 1 thing you get a ton of HP

in fantasy stories it does all the time... and in our games... again I can get hit in the face with 3 crits from a giant axe and be fine...

Just to be clear, you think me saying that "in fantasy and mythology everyone in the team that would be PCs are equals or atlest real close, and the 'normal' people still do amazing superhuman impossible things" will somehow lead to not letting us upgrade fighter?


I don't mind that. I have pushed for the last 5 years to have Ex and Sn powers in fighter. I just think that "I learned mountain hammer, or foe hammer, and now I can 1/encounter (short rest) ignore resitence with my attacks" is the bare bones bar is in hell minimum.

calling them super powers is what keeps being said over and over again stops them from happening... So when I point out Batman (and all his family of heroes) and Hawkeye and Green Arrow don't have super powers they just are 'that good' it's important.

Maybe you're getting push-back because "They're just that good" isn't an explanation and makes no narrative sense on its own?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Maybe you're getting push-back because "They're just that good" isn't an explanation and makes no narrative sense on its own?

it makes as much sense as anything else. I don't ask "how did batman dodge Darkseids undodgeable attack" I pump my arm and go "Yes" when he does. I don't ask "how did dare devil jump off a 5 story parking garage and tumble inside the 2nd story and not get hurt" I say "Awesome" I don't ask "how did that fighter challenge 4 orcs make them charge and then hit them all" I say "NICE!"

The how can be cool (especially if you have a cool explanation all set) but if it's just 'that's how it works' that is fine by me too.

way back in 2e I had a player jump from 1 air ship to another but fail, and fall almost 100ft... back then the DM ruled it was 10d10 damage, and the roll was in the 40s... the character was a 6th level fighter and had in the 40s for hp (we had not adopted max at 1st level yet for hp) and was left with 1 or 2 hp left... he got up cracked his neck and yelled up for a rope. I didn't ask "wait how does someone fall 100ft and feel okay enough to not only get right up but then to climb back up that 100ft?" I was excited "yes, awesome you didn't die"

not so far back in 3.5 when I played a warblade (a super high level one) I had a maneuver that added 100pts of damage on a hit (I think it had to be melee) and I had a stance that added a d6 to damage but I took a -2 to AC. I got hit with a baleful polymorph and that gives 2 saves 1 to negate the physical change (I failed that) and 1 to keep your mental abilities (I made that...with a nat 20 no less) so I got turned into a helpless bunny. I asked the DM "My maneuvers are all training so I remember them right" and his answer was "Yes so on your turn you can iron heart surge out of this"... that isn't what I did though... I was still in my stance I jumped up and kicked the mage. I bearly hit (new str sucked) and did 1d3-5+100+1d6 damage... and no one worried that it was weird the table erupted in laughter and hoots and howlers as my little bunny kicked the head off the mage... I actually threatened to stay in bunny form the rest of the dungeon as a joke... but I did Iron Heart surge back to normal after the fight.

in 4e I was the DM when a player as a fighter activated an aura 2 ability that said anyone that started in the aura took 1w damage (in his case 1d10 reroll 1s +3) and then did come and get it and pulled 5 enemies on to him hit some missed some... but marked all of them... then they started there turn in range and took damage... I and my players loved it.