D&D 5E Merlin and Arthur or Batman and zatana

[Haplo781]

And Superman PL 15 289 points

STR STA AGL DEX FGT INT AWE PRE
19 14 2 2 8 2 2 4
Powers
Flight: Array (30 points)
• Flight 15 (64,000 MPH) • 30 points
• Quickness 7, Stacks with Super-Speed; Speed 15 (64,000
MPH) • 1 point
• Movement 1 (Space Travel 1) • 1 point
Heat Vision: Ranged Damage 15 • 30 points
Invulnerability: Protection 4; Impervious Toughness 18;
Immunity 5 (Cold, Heat, Pressure, Radiation, Vacuum)
• 27 points
Super-Breath: Alternate Effects of Strength Damage (19 points)
• Cone Area Affliction 9 (Resisted by Fortitude; Hindered,
Immobile, Paralyzed) • 1 point
• Cone Area Move Object 9, Close Range, Limited to Pushing
and Pulling • 1 point
Super-Senses: Senses 15 (Extended Hearing 2, Extended
Vision 3, Infravision, Microscopic Vision 4, Ultra-hearing,
Vision Penetrates Concealment (except lead))
• 15 points
Super-Speed: Quickness 8 • 8 points
Super-Strength: Enhanced Strength 4, Limited to Lifting
(Lifting Str23; 200,000 tons) • 4 points
Equipm ent
HQ: Fortress of Solitude • 25 points
Size: Huge Tou: 20 Features: Communications, Computer,
Concealed 3 (+20 DC), Defense System, Hanger, Holding Cells,
Infirmary, Isolated, Laboratory, Library, Living Space, Power
System, Security System
Advantages
Connected, Equipment 5, Extraordinary Effort, Inspire 3,
Languages (Kryptonian), Leadership, Power Attack, Seize
Initiative, Ultimate Effort (Toughness checks)
Skills
Close Combat: Unarmed 3 (+11), Expertise: Farming 4 (+6),
Expertise: Krypton 8 (+10), Expertise: Journalism 10 (+12),
Perception 8 (+10), Persuasion 8 (+12), Ranged Combat: Heat
Vision 8 (+10), Technology 3 (+5)
Offense
Initiative +2
Heat Vision +10 Ranged, Damage 15
Unarmed +11 Close, Damage 19
Defense
Dodge 10 Fortitude 15
Parry 10 Toughness 18
Will 15
Power Points
Abilities 106 Skills 26
Powers 118 Defenses 24
Advantages 15 Total 289
Complications
Power Loss: Superman loses his powers and his Str and Sta
are reduced to 3 under a red sun, like that of Krypton, and
other effects draining or interfering with the energies of the
yellow sun can deprive him of his powers.
Relationships: Superman’s closest relationship is with his
wife, Lois Lane. Other important people in his life include his
mother, Martha Kent, and friends and co-workers Jimmy Olsen,
Perry White and Catherine “Cat” Grant.
Responsibility: Superman feels a strong sense of responsibility
to use his powers for the benefit of all.
Secret Identity: Clark Kent, mild-mannered reporter for the
Daily Planet.
Vulnerability: Superman is vulnerable to magic. His Toughness
is not Impervious against magical attacks.
Weakness: Kryptonite (see sidebar).

Kryptonite
Superman’s greatest weakness is the radioactive remains of his home planet Krypton, known as “kryptonite.” It comes in
a number of forms:
Green kryptonite is by far the most common. Its radiation saps the Strength and powers of Kryptonians, leaving them
impaired, disabled, and eventually debilitated in terms of Strength and power effects. Long-term exposure (usually a
matter of minutes, less for a large-enough amount) imposes the dying condition and may lead to death. Green kryptonite
radiation has little effect on humans unless they are exposed to it over a long period of time, in which case radiation sickness
or related diseases like cancer can result.
Red kryptonite has unpredictable effects on Kryptonians, typically an Affliction, usually with a transformed final result.
This can range from making a subject tiny or giant to turning a Kryptonian into an intangible wraith or ant-headed creature.
The effects wear off in a day or two.
Gold kryptonite temporarily removes Kryptonian powers and reduces their abilities to normal human levels for time
rank 1 (about 15 seconds) or two action rounds. This is often enough time for a foe to take advantage of the momentarily
powerless victim.
Blue kryptonite has no effect on anyone other than Bizarros, who become clear-minded, polite and compassionate
under its effects.
Black kryptonite splits its subject into two aspects of their personality. For example, it might split Kal-El into his Superman
and Clark Kent identities, each a separate individual. It often splits a subject into “good” and “evil” personalities.
Silver kryptonite affects Kryptonians like a powerful psychoactive: causing hallucinations, paranoid delusions or similar
unbalanced behavior. A second exposure to silver kryptonite can reverse the effects.
A DC Adventures Gamemaster should feel free to introduce other forms of kryptonite as challenges in the game as desired.
Experiments with existing samples of kryptonite and attempts to synthesize it can have unexpected effects.

Pink Kryptonite canonically turns a Kryptonian gay.

I am not making this up.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I think the main point of failure on this topic is that it seems batman is being expected and compared in his capacity to solo the big bad as compared to superman or zatana doing the same, but here’s the thing, you’re not meant to send your rogue to solo the big bad, that’s not their skillset, batman is the one who you send in to infiltrate the enemy headquarters and bug their computers/steal their files, to figure out their ultimate goal and what they need to do to counter it, all the powers in the world don’t mean toffee it they have no idea who they’re using them against, what the enemy’s actual target is or where they’ve disappeared to.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think the main point of failure on this topic is that it seems batman is being expected and compared in his capacity to solo the big bad as compared to superman or zatana doing the same, but here’s the thing, you’re not meant to send your rogue to solo the big bad, that’s not their skillset, batman is the one who you send in to infiltrate the enemy headquarters and bug their computers/steal their files, to figure out their ultimate goal and what they need to do to counter it, all the powers in the world don’t mean toffee it they have no idea who they’re using them against, what the enemy’s actual target is or where they’ve disappeared to.

again why I would say Torg where you can use your skills to buff allies and debuff enemies and attack/damage is just another skill is better at representing this

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don't know for sure but for at least 2 stories he did.

yeah plus a contigency to get put there somehow... it was weird, not as weird as when he used zatana magic but still

you can ask the writers, but yeah, he just has it when he needs it... but not when he doesn't.

when he used it he was better then any lantern.

no cost just only when he needs it... aka when the writers want him to

yup...

no. I see one of the most popular characters of modern myth I don't see it as a problem. I just compartmentalize when he is in cross overs and when he is in gotham.

Okay, so how do you propose we translate this to a game like 5e? This is schrodinger's statblock. It would be like having a rogue, and in one adventure he has no magic, then in the next adventure he puts on a ring and has at-will 9th level spells, and he still has the ring in the next adventure, but chooses not to use it? Tell me, how many Players would be willing to go into a difficult fight and NOT use every tool at their disposal?

Yes, the analogy between a comic book character and an RPG character isn't perfect. Analogies never are, but at this point you are basically saying that the analogy shows that the current fighter is balanced against the current magic-user because the DM can just fiat magical powers for the fighter whenever they feel like, whether or not it makes any sense.

yes and why can't a fighter or rouge have that 'when the chips are down' power?

no my position is that martial heroes should have the option of being batman like

Right, but here's the problem, you can't have a class whose options constantly shift via fiat. A player needs to know what their abilities are. They need to know they have X hp and that means that they can survive X damage, If X = whatever I feel like today, then they can't accurately judge threats and play the game.

It is far more effective to settle down into a single vision of what the class is capable of, rather than saying "the DM will Fiat what the class needs to be the hero of the story" which is the problem I'm trying to point out. Batman isn't used as an analogy for these classes because the writers alter his abilities constantly and break the internal logic of the story to make him the hero, he is used as an example because he has no powers.

If this is really too much of a problem for you to talk about Batman in a single consistent context, then I'll use Jimmy Olsen, or The Question, or someone else. The point is to demonstrate the issue and try and find solutions, not to argue whether or not the writers decided Batman can never die no matter what.

if the DM throws thugs at you, you are dealing with minions that are no threat to you... when doomsday shows up that is the problem... you are batman in your background from gotham, but in the game you are batman from jla

Except the minions ARE a threat to you. That's the problem. Batman has comics today where a thug with a gun is treated as a serious threat, while also having the ability to dodge light-speed attacks and survive multi-ton attacks.

This is like saying that the current DnD level 20 fighter is threatened by a commoner with a stick, and by Orcus IN EQUAL MEASURE. Which doesn't work.

I don't know dragonball but okay

sigh, you can say DC doesn't work that way even while reading that it does... that is willful disregarding the source material

So, when Superman goes to sleep I can stab him with an iron dagger and kill him? Because DC works on the logic that strong-will and being aware of the attack is all that matters? Wait... no. Specifically I can't, because in DC things like invulnerability work even if you are unaware of the attack. And the strong-willed Commisioner Gordon can totally take super powered blows right? Um... no, he can't. He is often taken out by mundane level attacks.

I'm not ignoring the source material, I'm calling out the source material for being inconsistent and not presenting a coherent setting.

Again, the analogy isn't meant to be 1 to 1, it isn't meant to be that these things are perfectly representative of every factor of the DC comics line. They are meant to be quick touchstones, because not everyone is aware of the same media.

If batman is facng darkseid batman is 15+ level... and needs to hit and keep up with level 15+. You don't get to take superman and make him hit so much harder at the same level

Why not? Why does Superman's player not get to expeirence levels 1 - 20, but Batman's does? How is that fair to them?

fire fighters aren't the PCs if they were they would do that... cause main character do that not supporting side NPCs

And you are missing the point. Let us say that the Fire Fighters ARE PCs, how do they contribute in the fight against Darkseid? What can they do?

I mean they can run, jump, climb, initmidate, persuade, attack, defend exactly as well at 114hp at 94hp at 33hp at 7hp

Cool, so they can fight through the pain and still contribute. Great hero material. But they are still injured, because they no longer have 114 hp, they have 7. That matters, even if we don't give them a -10 to every roll alongside disadvantage.

batman (and adjacent characters) somehow beat flashes and other speedsters...

you are not a high level fighter, nor are you a comic character.

except this shows you don't read the source material... cause you can and he does.

Right, you are just refusing to engage in the premise.

My fighter can now cast like an 18th level archmage. He is the hero after all, and he has all the fighter abilities and no caster levels. In fact, he can't even use magic. But he does, because he is the hero and he does it anyways.

Does this sound like how a coherent system works? I don't care that they've shown batman having super strength and super durability and super speed.

But, since Batman has super powers, he is not a good analogy anymore. So, you are a fire fighter in gotham now. How do you contribute to the Justice League's fight?

 

[Voadam]

Okay, so how do you propose we translate this to a game like 5e?

First, decide whether you want JLA Batman who is a high level character and part of a high level team who faces big threats, or Batman Begins where two thugs with crowbars is the serious adversary being dealt with by a solo young Batman, or Batfamily experienced Batman who as part of a team of vigilantes deals with the typical Batman Rogues Gallery and not cosmic threats.

Generally when it is comparing Batman and Zatana it is in the JLA group type context.

Then if you want the yellow ring type things that only come up occasionally make them connected to some metacurrency like attunement and per day uses, perhaps with a drawback so the high power ring is best useable in certain situations only.

In 5e in particular having an array of attunement items where you can't be attuned to each of them at the same time is one way to have the switchable type but only occasionally used powers.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Okay, so how do you propose we translate this to a game like 5e? This is schrodinger's statblock.

no I propose that we take the idea that level should be all that matters in team ups and 99.999999% of DnD is the team up.

if you ignore batman solo adventures and just look at his JLA adventures there IS consestancy.
If you ignore batman JLA adventrues you are ignoreing the part that is like D&D (small squad of adventurerers)

but up until now people have taken superman solo adventures and batman solo adventures and put them against each other... but again you need the JLA were they all are equals.

my suggestion is this, if a 11th level character can 1/day use a 6th level spell then all of the 6th level spells show what is balanced for an 11th level character to do... either tone down the 6th level spells (not likely) or upgrade what fighter, monk, rogue and barbarian can do at 11th level.

It would be like having a rogue, and in one adventure he has no magic, then in the next adventure he puts on a ring and has at-will 9th level spells, and he still has the ring in the next adventure, but chooses not to use it? Tell me, how many Players would be willing to go into a difficult fight and NOT use every tool at their disposal?

no it wouldn't... you would choose (My choice is by level) if they have the ring of at will 9th level spells or not. but you would keep it across all characters. You can't have 1 character (Green Lantern in this case) have the option of at will 9th level spells while others don't have that option.

Yes, the analogy between a comic book character and an RPG character isn't perfect. Analogies never are, but at this point you are basically saying that the analogy shows that the current fighter is balanced against the current magic-user because the DM can just fiat magical powers for the fighter whenever they feel like, whether or not it makes any sense.

That is NOT what I am saying or showing. I am saying that they SHOULD be balanced by the creators of the games not the DMs

Right, but here's the problem, you can't have a class whose options constantly shift via fiat.

and I am not asking for there to be.

A player needs to know what their abilities are.

right and we balance them by level... a 16th level fighter should have the option to be as powerful and as game changing as a 16th level cleric of war, or a 16th level (3rd artificer (battlesmith) 13th wizard (bladesinger)) or a 16th level diviner. the important part of power and options should be LEVEL... now they should be flavored for class.

They need to know they have X hp and that means that they can survive X damage, If X = whatever I feel like today, then they can't accurately judge threats and play the game.

right but your arguement that someone should be street level batman getting KOed by a knife while someone else is fist fighting mongal or a god is BS... cause when batman is IN THOSE STORIES a knife is not KOing him, it wont even be close.

It is far more effective to settle down into a single vision of what the class is capable of, rather than saying "the DM will Fiat what the class needs to be the hero of the story" which is the problem I'm trying to point out. Batman isn't used as an analogy for these classes because the writers alter his abilities constantly and break the internal logic of the story to make him the hero, he is used as an example because he has no powers.

there is no part of this argument that is DM based it is WotC that needs to balance the game not DMs

If this is really too much of a problem for you to talk about Batman in a single consistent context, then I'll use Jimmy Olsen, or The Question, or someone else. The point is to demonstrate the issue and try and find solutions, not to argue whether or not the writers decided Batman can never die no matter what.

notice Jimmy Olsen and even the Question do not rutenly work with the group of gods known as the JLA. You now want 2 people playing VERY diffrent games and that is BS... keep to the JLA batman and it IS consistent, YOU make it inconsistant when you bring up his SOLO adventrues.

Except the minions ARE a threat to you. That's the problem. Batman has comics today where a thug with a gun is treated as a serious threat, while also having the ability to dodge light-speed attacks and survive multi-ton attacks.

NO! again this is a YOU thing. the batman of JLA is NOT threatened by a thug with a gun he takes on multiversal threats. Batman of the JLA is a 17th+ level character with other 17th+ level characters facing down 17+ CR problems.
Batman in solo adventures is a 5th level character (I would say monk 2 rouge 3) facing CR 4-7 challanges.

This is like saying that the current DnD level 20 fighter is threatened by a commoner with a stick, and by Orcus IN EQUAL MEASURE. Which doesn't work.

right but the important part is 20th level.

right now today with no DM fiat the 20th level fighter is NOT a threat to Orcus at all.

So, when Superman goes to sleep I can stab him with an iron dagger and kill him? Because DC works on the logic that strong-will and being aware of the attack is all that matters? Wait... no. Specifically I can't, because in DC things like invulnerability work even if you are unaware of the attack. And the strong-willed Commisioner Gordon can totally take super powered blows right? Um... no, he can't. He is often taken out by mundane level attacks.

GOrdon is an NPC... you can't stab and kill batman in his sleep either (and I doubt other then house rules you can stab and kill any 4th level or higher PC either without pulling out some crazy level assassin)

I'm not ignoring the source material, I'm calling out the source material for being inconsistent and not presenting a coherent setting.

it is consistant that batman CAN EQUAL THE JLA...

Why not? Why does Superman's player not get to expeirence levels 1 - 20, but Batman's does? How is that fair to them?

I don't even know where you get this from... level matters and in team ups they are all the same level.
so if batman is level 3 superman is level 3. If superman is level 17 batman is level 17.

And you are missing the point. Let us say that the Fire Fighters ARE PCs, how do they contribute in the fight against Darkseid? What can they do?

if they are equal level to each other and in the CR range for Darkseid there class abilities should be able to contribute.

Cool, so they can fight through the pain and still contribute. Great hero material. But they are still injured, because they no longer have 114 hp, they have 7. That matters, even if we don't give them a -10 to every roll alongside disadvantage.

HP are plot armor, until you run out you are perfectly fine

Right, you are just refusing to engage in the premise.

no YOU are,

My fighter can now cast like an 18th level archmage. He is the hero after all, and he has all the fighter abilities and no caster levels. In fact, he can't even use magic. But he does, because he is the hero and he does it anyways.

Your 18th level fighter SHOULD have equal and thematic abilities to fit your class/concept with an 18th level archmage... yes that is the point. It doesn't have to be magic. Batman doesn't have super powers but his NON POWERED self can keep up with the fastest man alive, a demi god the last sun of krypton and an person with the ring of 'thy will be done'

Does this sound like how a coherent system works? I don't care that they've shown batman having super strength and super durability and super speed.

Yes, it sounds like a system where the whole group gets to be equals

But, since Batman has super powers, he is not a good analogy anymore. So, you are a fire fighter in gotham now. How do you contribute to the Justice League's fight?

If you are a fire fighter in gotham that regualarly works with the JLA you should be equal level and power to the JLA

 

[GMforPowergamers]

First, decide whether you want JLA Batman who is a high level character and part of a high level team who faces big threats, or Batman Begins where two thugs with crowbars is the serious adversary being dealt with by a solo young Batman, or Batfamily experienced Batman who as part of a team of vigilantes deals with the typical Batman Rogues Gallery and not cosmic threats.

thank you... the story has a level, and all the heroes (at least the PCs) should be that level and equals.

Generally when it is comparing Batman and Zatana it is in the JLA group type context.

thank you I have been trying to say this

Then if you want the yellow ring type things that only come up occasionally make them connected to some metacurrency like attunement and per day uses, perhaps with a drawback so the high power ring is best useable in certain situations only.

In 5e in particular having an array of attunement items where you can't be attuned to each of them at the same time is one way to have the switchable type but only occasionally used powers.

I mean Just to Be FAIR, when he pulled out the yellow and or black rings I rolled my eyes and stopped buying those stories... not because I want batman weak but because those were dumb stories (IMO). You shouldn't have batman in a story where he has to become GL to be in the story. However these feats show that he CAN do those things when they fit the adventure/story.

 

[Krachek]

In fantasy a team of heroes is linked by the writers.
Each one face a challenge according to his needs and power.
The writer make each character contribute enough to make a teamwork, even non hero character face their own custom challenge and contribute in their way.

That ambiance can be transposed in DnD. It makes a more social, entertaining play style, where players willingly share the spotlight and don’t get angry when the DM help every character be meaningfull.

DnD become more clunky when players start struggling to have the spotlight, and compete to be the most useful to overcome challenges. But the situation is not unsolvable. Players may agree to compete and challenge each other on clear terms. The rules chosen become the new harsh reality of life, and characters are build according to that.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

My favorite comic characters are not big name ones... my top 2 across any company are Booster Gold and Blue Beetle (ted kord). Back in the 90's they were part of a JLA that was VERY diffrent.

Superman was technically on the team (replacing Martian manhunter*) but he was almost never around
Bloodwynd* was a superman light character but had some cool necromancy powers
Maxima was strong could fly like superman but mostly was a red headed telepath with Telekinesis
Fire was basicly a pallet swap human torch
Ice was basicly a less powerful iceman
Guy Gardner traded his green ring for a yellow one that had a habit of breaking down and had undefined rules.
and my boys Booster and Beetle.

this group on paper MAY look like it could be the big 7 in power level but really it couldn't... and the big show is how different they handle the death of superman in the new animated with the JLA being the big 7, and how it was handled in the 90s with these characters.

Doomsday blinded guy gardner by beating him THROUGH his ring shield.
Doomsday broke Ice's arm
Doomsday pulled shenanigans on Bloodwynd
Fire ran out of fire fighting Doomsday
then my boys... Booster's suit was riped and destroyed and like Iron Man his powers were his suit... Blue Beetle got almost killed and put in a comma.

Now Blue Beetle has 0 power. He isn't even as cool trained as batman. In solo adventures Blue Beetle acted like batman but with spiderman's sense of humor. (so basic nightwing). When in the team though he didn't get brought up to superman, he got brought up to fire, ice and booster. So yeah, he survives being manhandled and punched and thrown by doomsday (who can hurt superman) but just hanging on by a string to life...

In the new more modern version batman IS there... doomsday doesn't do anything to him (that I recall) but make him winded.

Both stories end with superman making a final stand.
BUT when blue beetle is a 'normal guy in no armor' fights doomsday he does nothing and he gets pasted but survives. When batman in teh exact same situation does the fight he holds doomsday off, and keeps up with every non superman on the field...
common sense says both get 1 shotted no effort, doomsday just kills them... and if they appeared in Blue Beetle #7 or Detective comics #687 I would say "yeah, these heroes are boned" but that isn't where doomsday appears... its in JLA, and as such Blue Beetle with no armor and just a strong will tanks a few hits and goes down, and batman is able to dodge and weave around someone fast enough to tag flash and hitting hard enough to hurt superman and wonder woman.


When team ups happen everyone has to be on the same level.

In D&D a 3rd level fighter and a 3rd level wizard make sense. BUT a 15th level wizard and 15th level fighter doesn't...

 

[Voadam]

I am going to go against the groove a little bit and say that group superhero teams also have a bit of history of being unequal and unbalanced.

I can remember some Justice League ones where you have Flash and Superman and Green Lantern all doing big power stuff and then you have Green Arrow dodging, shooting off a trick arrow every now and then, and making jokes.

Captain Planet there was super powered Fire, Water, Earth, Air, . . . and Heart.

AD&D the thief in the party often felt like Green Arrow next to Green Lantern, not able to keep up in fights, barely able to dodge, and trying to get in some awkward and sometimes contrived spotlight time doing things most anyone could do.

I am not arguing this was a good thing, but it is a thing I have seen.