D&D 5E Merlin and Arthur or Batman and zatana

[GMforPowergamers]

So, he has a Lazarus Pit in the Batcave now?

I don't know for sure but for at least 2 stories he did.

And that allows... him to come back from the dead, with insanity. Okay. But someone has to drag his corpse to the pool.

yeah plus a contigency to get put there somehow... it was weird, not as weird as when he used zatana magic but still

But let us take something he could clearly have and that would make a significant difference. The Yellow Lantern Ring. Cool. He has that in his back-pocket. Why doesn't he use it to take down villains in Gotham? Maybe there is some sort of cost to it. Okay, that's fair. Why doesn't he use it when there are hundreds of lives on the line, or someone sets up a dirty bomb? A tense situation that he could actually solve faster and with less risk to the civilians by putting on the ring and using it.

you can ask the writers, but yeah, he just has it when he needs it... but not when he doesn't.

And, if he is just going to be using the Yellow Lantern ring.... what makes him different from any other Lantern Corp member except that since he is also Batman he is just flat out better than the Green Lantern?

when he used it he was better then any lantern.

Finally, maybe the writers can find that balance, that the cost of using the ring is so high that he'd never use it except in the most dire of circumstances....

no cost just only when he needs it... aka when the writers want him to

which means any time we see him NOT using it, the circumstances aren't actually that dire. This is actually one of the most challenging parts of the tropes surrounding powered up forms or super-powered artifacts. If they become the emergency button, then any time they aren't used it isn't an emergency, and that means the hero was holding back the entire time.

yup...

Do you see how these factors start to become a major problem for the story?

no. I see one of the most popular characters of modern myth I don't see it as a problem. I just compartmentalize when he is in cross overs and when he is in gotham.

The only real answer is... suspension of disbelief.

yup

You just ignore the fact that the character could be doing something else. The problem with this in an RPG setting is though, well, you are looking at your character sheet. You are the one holding back. And... well, you don't have to. If you really think the chips are down, you pull your trump cards, because that's what you do.

yes and why can't a fighter or rouge have that 'when the chips are down' power?

So, is your position that Batman is a bad allegory and we need a DIFFERENT hero to compare with, to make the proper comparison?

no my position is that martial heroes should have the option of being batman like

Lumping this all together. Because you are basically saying that the rules of an RPG do not need to lead to a coherent story.

nope

If I am playing Batman, then I treat a thug with the knife with the same sense of danger and urgency as Doomsday, because they are equally threatening to me. With pure will I can survive blows that shatter mountains, all while having no durability powers that would allow me to do so, because that's the story.

if the DM throws thugs at you, you are dealing with minions that are no threat to you... when doomsday shows up that is the problem... you are batman in your background from gotham, but in the game you are batman from jla

But, at that point, you aren't making a story. You are making fanfic vignettes that are not connected to each other beyond having the same main character. Because while it doesn't need to make sense in our real world, it needs to make sense IN THE WORLD IT TAKES PLACE IN.

not me... every writer of comics ever. but thank you for assuming I am in that quality.

There is actually a perfect example of this in Dragonball Z. During the Cell saga Goku and Gohan train in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and emerge able to maintain their Super Sayain forms indefinitely. Krillin, Goku's friend, is musing about how they must be constantly ready for combat and so strong that even while they are sleeping they must be able to deflect attacks. So he throws a rock at Goku. Now, at this point, Goku has gotten strong enough to break planets. However, the rock hits him in the head and it hurts. Why? That makes no sense right? Well.... it actually does in-universe. Because Dragonball works on the concept of Ki, and Ki has to be ACTIVELY used. Goku was really relaxing and sleeping, so his defenses were completely down. He was hurt by the rock, because unless he is conscious and using his power, he is only as tough as a normal person.

I don't know dragonball but okay

But DC doesn't work under that system. Batman doesn't become invulnerable just because he's strong-willed, because he isn't invulnerable all the time. But Superman is. And it again leads to the same problem. If Batman can just ignore attacks through willpower, his bones refusing to break because he is just that determined.... why does he ever break bones? He just... wasn't feeling it that day?

sigh, you can say DC doesn't work that way even while reading that it does... that is willful disregarding the source material

Uh huh, but here's the thing. Why are you sending Darkseid against him, if you need to give him the Hellbat armor so he can compete? Wouldn't it make more sense to send someone like Poison Ivy or Mad Mod? This is like saying that you see no problem with sending an Ancient Dragon against a level 1 fighter, because that fighter will get armor of invulnerability and a sword of insta-slaying dragons, so he totally can win the fight. The better encounter is one that you don't need to adjust the scales for, rather than the one you have to drastically power-up the PCs for.

If batman is facng darkseid batman is 15+ level... and needs to hit and keep up with level 15+. You don't get to take superman and make him hit so much harder at the same level

And it is especially bad if you are heaping items and boons on one player, while the other player gets nothing, because of the imbalance between them.

right so the class should provide it

So are firefighters. But somehow when Darkseid was attacking the city, we didn't see the heroic firefighters shooting him with water hoses that short-circuited his tech.

fire fighters aren't the PCs if they were they would do that... cause main character do that not supporting side NPCs

Power levels do exist in that world. That's the entire point of discussing things in terms of "are these power applicable"

yet you can see they do not... or they only do if you IGNORE some of the stories

What do you mean as good as new? When that character climbs out of the pit, they aren't as good as new, they are still missing a chunk of their hit points. Do you mean as good as new the next day? After they receive magical healing? What do we mean.

I mean they can run, jump, climb, initmidate, persuade, attack, defend exactly as well at 114hp at 94hp at 33hp at 7hp

How is this difficult? Flash has super-speed. That is his power. Batman does not have super-speed. He explicitly does not have that power. So, who is faster, Batman or Flash? Flash. Because Flash has super-speed, and Batman doesn't. If suddenly Batman is moving faster than Flash can react to... then the writers are turning off Flash's powers to make Batman look cool. Because otherwise it doesn't make any sense that Batman is faster.

batman (and adjacent characters) somehow beat flashes and other speedsters...

Which means it makes no sense. No matter how "good" I am at running, I can't break the sound barrier. No matter how "good" I am at punching, I can't shatter titanium with my bare fist. No matter how "good" I am at taking a punch, I can't survive being at ground zero of a nuke.

you are not a high level fighter, nor are you a comic character.

You can't just "be that good" in a world where they have explicitly laid down the line between human and superhuman.

except this shows you don't read the source material... cause you can and he does.

Depends. If he built the thing, then yes. If he just found the the thing that someone else built, then no.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The fact that they're organized independently and shared between classes (who have differing levels of access) makes a big difference to me.

NGL, I have never really understood why this matters so much. I get that it matters, just not why. Further, as long as it's done carefully, it can avoid the pitfalls that would otherwise put me off, so it's not totally beyond the pale. But I still just...don't understand why this is a total deal-breaker.

 

[Micah Sweet]

NGL, I have never really understood why this matters so much. I get that it matters, just not why. Further, as long as it's done carefully, it can avoid the pitfalls that would otherwise put me off, so it's not totally beyond the pale. But I still just...don't understand why this is a total deal-breaker.

Quite frankly, AEDU bugged the hell out of me. Twisting the narrative to make sure the mechanics worked the way the book said bugged the hell out of me. Ultimately, making the rules matter more than the world the rules were supposed to be depicting bugged the hell out of me too.

The entire philosophy of 4e rubbed me the wrong way. No amount of good design could get past that.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Quite frankly, AEDU bugged the hell out of me. Twisting the narrative to make sure the mechanics worked the way the book said bugged the hell out of me. Ultimately, making the rules matter more than the world the rules were supposed to be depicting bugged the hell out of me too.

The entire philosophy of 4e rubbed me the wrong way. No amount of good design could get past that.

Not strictly what I was referring to--I meant the "common pool of actions" thing.

 

[Blue Orange]

I think this is getting off topic and someone should post 5e stats for Batman.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I think this is getting off topic and someone should post 5e stats for Batman.

Got you covered.

Batman​

[[REDACTED]]

 

[Voadam]

I think this is getting off topic and someone should post 5e stats for Batman.

I don't have 5e, but I do have the 3e Mutants & Mastermind stats for him from the DC Adventures Heroes and Villains sourcebook (Key highlight being power level 12 (most heroes are 10 I believe) and power points 283 (most have 10 power points per power level I believe):

BATMAN PL12
STR STA AGL DEX FGT INT AWE PRE
4 4 7 7 14 8 7 7
EQUIPMENT
Flashlight: Feature 1 (Illumination) • 1 point
Grapnel Gun: Super-Movement 1 (Swinging) • 2 points
Mini-Tracers: Feature 1 (Tracking) • 1 point
Rebreather: Immunity 2 (Suffocation), Limited • 1 point
Utility Belt: Array (12 points)
• Bolos: Ranged Affliction 4 (Resisted by Dodge; Hindered
and Vulnerable, Defenseless and Immobile) • 12 points
• Batarangs: Strength-based Ranged Damage 2 • 1 point
• Cutting Torch: Damage 1 (heat) Linked to Weaken Object’s
Toughness 1 • 1 point
• Explosive Batarangs: Ranged Burst Area Damage 4 • 1 point
• Flash Bombs: Ranged Burst Area Affliction 3 (Resisted by
Fortitude; Vision Impaired, Vision Disabled, Vision Unaware)
• 1 point
• Sleep Gas Pellets: Ranged Cloud Area Affliction 4 (Resisted
by Fortitude; Fatigued, Exhausted, Asleep) • 1 point
• Smoke Bombs: Cloud Area Visual Concealment Attack 4
• 1 point
• Tear Gas Pellets: Ranged Cloud Area Affliction 3 (Resisted
by Fortitude; Dazed and Vision Impaired, Stunned and
Vision Disabled, Incapacitated) • 1 point
HEADQUARTERS: THE BATCAVE • 20 POINTS
Size: Huge Tou 10 Features: Communications, Computer,
Concealed, Defense System, Dock, Garage, Gym, Hanger, Infirmary,
Laboratory, Library, Living Space, Power System, Workshop.
VEHICLES: ARRAY (49 POINTS)
• BATPLANE • 49 POINTS
Equivalent to a fighter jet (see the Gadgets & Gear chapter
of DC Adventures) without machine guns (but with air-to-air
missiles) and with the Remote Control feature.
• BATMOBILE • 1 POINT
Size: Huge Str 8 Spd 6 Def 8 Tou 10 Features: Alarm 3 (DC
30), Caltrops, Hidden Compartments, Navigation System 2 (+10
bonus), Oil Slick, Remote Control; Impervious Toughness 8
• BATBOAT • 1 POINT
Equivalent to the Batmobile, but with water speed in place of
ground speed and without the Caltrops or Oil Slick features.
ADVANTAGES
Assessment, Benefit 5 (Billionaire), Close Attack 6, Connected,
Contacts, Daze (Intimidation), Defensive Attack, Defensive
Roll 4, Equipment 19, Evasion, Hide in Plain Sight, Improved
Initiative, Improvised Tools, Instant Up, Inventor, Jack-of-all-trades,
Languages 4, Move-by Action, Power Attack, Precise
Attack (Ranged; Cover), Quick Draw, Ranged Attack 7,
Redirect, Seize Initiative, Set-up, Skill Mastery (Intimidation),
Skill Mastery (Investigation), Startle, Takedown, Trance,
Tracking, Uncanny Dodge, Well-informed
SKILLS
Acrobatics 8 (+15), Athletics 11 (+15), Deception 8 (+15), Expertise:
Criminology 13 (+21), Expertise: Streetwise 13 (+21), Insight 10
(+17), Intimidation 15 (+22), Investigation 14 (+22), Perception 13
(+20), Persuasion 5 (+12), Stealth 13 (+20), Sleight of Hand 8 (+15),
Technology 8 (+15), Treatment 5 (+12), Vehicles 8 (+15)
OFFENSE
Initiative +11
Batarang +14 Ranged, Damage 6
Unarmed +20 Close, Damage 4
DEFENSE
Dodge 14 Fortitude 9
Parry 14 Toughness 8/4*
Will 13 * Without Defensive Roll.
POWER POINTS
Abilities 116 Skills 76
Powers 0 Defenses 19
Advantages 72 Total 283
COMPLICATIONS
Flashbacks: Batman is sometimes stunned by traumatic
flashbacks to the night his parents were murdered, especially
in connection to Crime Alley, where the killings took place.
Nemesis: Batman has a number of recurring foes, but the
Joker is the most dangerous of all.
Obsession: Crime fighting.
Relationships: Although he may appear to be a loner, Batman
has a number of important people in his life, including
Nightwing, Robin, Oracle, Alfred Pennyworth (the faithful
Wayne family butler) and Police Commissioner James Gordon.
Responsibility: Batman considers Gotham his city, and his
responsibility.
Secret Identity: Bruce Wayne.

I particularly like one of their sidebars on him

PL12, 283 POINTS?!
No one blows past the point limit for their power level
more than Batman. And that’s fine. You could do the
same in your series by giving out power points normally,
but rarely (if ever!) increasing the power level. This
approach is particularly good for “street-level” games.

 

[Voadam]

For Contrast

Wonder Woman PL 15 273 points.

STA AGL DEX FGT INT AWE PRE
16 14 10 8 14 2 4 6
Powers
Bracelets of Victory: Impervious Toughness 10, Sustained,
Removable (–2 points) • 8 points
Magic Lasso: Move Object 16 Linked to Ranged Affliction 16
(Resisted by Will; Vulnerable, Compelled), Limited to Telling the
Truth, Limited Degree, Easily Removable (–16 points) • 22 points
Quick Change: Feature 1 (change into Wonder Woman as a
free action) • 1 point
Speed of Hermes: Flight 11 (4,000 MPH) • 22 points
Strength of Gaea: Enhanced Strength 6, Limited to Lifting
(Lifting Str22; 100,000 tons) • 6 points
Equipm ent
Vehicl e: Invisibl e Pl ane • 44 points
Size: Huge Str: 20 Def: 6 Tou: 11 Features: Concealment 2
(visual), Flight 11
Advantages
Animal Empathy, Attractive, Benefit (Ambassador of Themyscira),
Equipment 9, Languages 2, Ranged Attack 4, Teamwork
Skills
Acrobatics 6 (+16), Athletics 4 (+20), Expertise: Mythology 8
(+10), Insight 10 (+14), Intimidation 4 (+10), Investigation 6
(+8), Perception 8 (+12), Persuasion 6 (+12), Ranged Combat:
Lasso 2 (+14), Vehicles 4 (+12)
Offense
Initiative +10
Lasso +14 Ranged, Move Object 16 (+16 grab bonus)
Unarmed +14 Close, Damage 16
Weapon +14 Close, typically Damage 18-19
Defense
Dodge 16 Fortitude 14
Parry 16 Toughness 14
Will 16
Power Points
Abilities 148 Skills 29
Powers 59 Defenses 20
Advantages 17 Total 273
Complications
Enemies: Circe and the Cheetah.
Power Loss: In her Diana Prince identity, Wonder Woman has
no powers and the abilities of an ordinary (if athletic and skilled)
woman. Her Str and Sta are 3 and her Dex and Agl are 4.
Responsibility: To Themyscira.
Secret Identity: Diana Prince, agent of the Department of
Metahuman Affairs

Bullets & Bracelets
Wonder Woman’s Amazon bracelets can casually deflect
attacks, providing her with the benefits of Impervious
Toughness at the cost of a free action each round. This
allows her to largely ignore minor attacks like bullets
(even a hail of automatic gunfire, thanks to the Speed
of Hermes). Diana’s Toughness is sufficient to shrug off
many attacks, but without her bracelets (or the opportunity
to use them) she must still make Toughness
resistance checks against even ordinary gunshots or
weapons, which may damage her.

 

[Voadam]

And Superman PL 15 289 points

STR STA AGL DEX FGT INT AWE PRE
19 14 2 2 8 2 2 4
Powers
Flight: Array (30 points)
• Flight 15 (64,000 MPH) • 30 points
• Quickness 7, Stacks with Super-Speed; Speed 15 (64,000
MPH) • 1 point
• Movement 1 (Space Travel 1) • 1 point
Heat Vision: Ranged Damage 15 • 30 points
Invulnerability: Protection 4; Impervious Toughness 18;
Immunity 5 (Cold, Heat, Pressure, Radiation, Vacuum)
• 27 points
Super-Breath: Alternate Effects of Strength Damage (19 points)
• Cone Area Affliction 9 (Resisted by Fortitude; Hindered,
Immobile, Paralyzed) • 1 point
• Cone Area Move Object 9, Close Range, Limited to Pushing
and Pulling • 1 point
Super-Senses: Senses 15 (Extended Hearing 2, Extended
Vision 3, Infravision, Microscopic Vision 4, Ultra-hearing,
Vision Penetrates Concealment (except lead))
• 15 points
Super-Speed: Quickness 8 • 8 points
Super-Strength: Enhanced Strength 4, Limited to Lifting
(Lifting Str23; 200,000 tons) • 4 points
Equipm ent
HQ: Fortress of Solitude • 25 points
Size: Huge Tou: 20 Features: Communications, Computer,
Concealed 3 (+20 DC), Defense System, Hanger, Holding Cells,
Infirmary, Isolated, Laboratory, Library, Living Space, Power
System, Security System
Advantages
Connected, Equipment 5, Extraordinary Effort, Inspire 3,
Languages (Kryptonian), Leadership, Power Attack, Seize
Initiative, Ultimate Effort (Toughness checks)
Skills
Close Combat: Unarmed 3 (+11), Expertise: Farming 4 (+6),
Expertise: Krypton 8 (+10), Expertise: Journalism 10 (+12),
Perception 8 (+10), Persuasion 8 (+12), Ranged Combat: Heat
Vision 8 (+10), Technology 3 (+5)
Offense
Initiative +2
Heat Vision +10 Ranged, Damage 15
Unarmed +11 Close, Damage 19
Defense
Dodge 10 Fortitude 15
Parry 10 Toughness 18
Will 15
Power Points
Abilities 106 Skills 26
Powers 118 Defenses 24
Advantages 15 Total 289
Complications
Power Loss: Superman loses his powers and his Str and Sta
are reduced to 3 under a red sun, like that of Krypton, and
other effects draining or interfering with the energies of the
yellow sun can deprive him of his powers.
Relationships: Superman’s closest relationship is with his
wife, Lois Lane. Other important people in his life include his
mother, Martha Kent, and friends and co-workers Jimmy Olsen,
Perry White and Catherine “Cat” Grant.
Responsibility: Superman feels a strong sense of responsibility
to use his powers for the benefit of all.
Secret Identity: Clark Kent, mild-mannered reporter for the
Daily Planet.
Vulnerability: Superman is vulnerable to magic. His Toughness
is not Impervious against magical attacks.
Weakness: Kryptonite (see sidebar).

Kryptonite
Superman’s greatest weakness is the radioactive remains of his home planet Krypton, known as “kryptonite.” It comes in
a number of forms:
Green kryptonite is by far the most common. Its radiation saps the Strength and powers of Kryptonians, leaving them
impaired, disabled, and eventually debilitated in terms of Strength and power effects. Long-term exposure (usually a
matter of minutes, less for a large-enough amount) imposes the dying condition and may lead to death. Green kryptonite
radiation has little effect on humans unless they are exposed to it over a long period of time, in which case radiation sickness
or related diseases like cancer can result.
Red kryptonite has unpredictable effects on Kryptonians, typically an Affliction, usually with a transformed final result.
This can range from making a subject tiny or giant to turning a Kryptonian into an intangible wraith or ant-headed creature.
The effects wear off in a day or two.
Gold kryptonite temporarily removes Kryptonian powers and reduces their abilities to normal human levels for time
rank 1 (about 15 seconds) or two action rounds. This is often enough time for a foe to take advantage of the momentarily
powerless victim.
Blue kryptonite has no effect on anyone other than Bizarros, who become clear-minded, polite and compassionate
under its effects.
Black kryptonite splits its subject into two aspects of their personality. For example, it might split Kal-El into his Superman
and Clark Kent identities, each a separate individual. It often splits a subject into “good” and “evil” personalities.
Silver kryptonite affects Kryptonians like a powerful psychoactive: causing hallucinations, paranoid delusions or similar
unbalanced behavior. A second exposure to silver kryptonite can reverse the effects.
A DC Adventures Gamemaster should feel free to introduce other forms of kryptonite as challenges in the game as desired.
Experiments with existing samples of kryptonite and attempts to synthesize it can have unexpected effects.

 

[Voadam]

And for the thread title Zatana PL 11 153 points.

STR STA AGL DEX FGT INT AWE PRE
0 2 2 4 2 3 4 4
Powers
Magic: Array (28 points)
• Enogeb Cigam!: Nullify 14 (All Magic Effects) • 28 points
• Eb Won Dnuob!: Ranged Affliction 14 (Resisted by Dodge;
Hindered and Vulnerable, Defenseless and Immobilized)
• 1 point
• Cigam Ekirts!: Ranged Damage 14 (magic) • 1 point
• Otserp Egnahc O!: Ranged Affliction 9 (Resisted by Fortitude;
Dazed, Stunned, Transformed), Cumulative • 1 point
• Raeppa!: Create 9, Continuous, Subtle • 1 point
• Tcetorp!: Perception Ranged Deflect 14 • 1 point
• Won Tegrof: Affliction 9 (Resisted by Will; Dazed, Stunned,
Transformed—subject forgets), Insidious, Progressive • 1 point
• Tropsnart Em!: Teleport 14 (60 miles) • 1 point
Mystic Senses: Senses 4 (Detect Magic, Ranged, Acute,
Analytical) • 4 points
Advantages
Artificer, Attractive, Connected, Defensive Attack, Extraordinary
Effort, Fascinate (Expertise: Performance), Luck, Ritualist,
Teamwork
Skills
Deception 8 (+12), Expertise: Magic 12 (+15), Expertise (Pre):
Performance 8 (+12), Insight 8 (+12), Perception 6 (+10),
Persuasion 6 (+10), Ranged Combat: Magic 4 (+8), Sleight of
Hand 10 (+14), Treatment 4 (+7)
Offense
Initiative +2
Magic +8 Ranged, Damage 14 plus others
Unarmed +2 Close, Damage 0
Defense
Dodge 12 Fortitude 7
Parry 8 Toughness 2
Will 13
Power Points
Abilities 42 Skills 33
Powers 39 Defenses 30
Advantages 9 Total 153
Complications
Enemies: Zatanna has various mystical foes who consider her
a threat.
Guilt: Zatanna feels guilt over the death of her father, Zatara,
who sacrificed himself to save her.
Power Loss: Zatanna needs to speak aloud (and backwards)
to cast her spells.