D&D 5E Merlin and Arthur or Batman and zatana

[Chaosmancer]

I can not stress enough, batman knew he won before he entered the throne room. HOWEVER he beat up a different new god, took his armor and then went and punched Darkseid.... cause he couldn't just walk in and start talking he went in and fought him. This is not the only example of him being in the fight when logic says he shouldn't (cause he's batman) but it sure does prove he beat him.

Now before we say that superman would go and punch Darkseid too... yeah he would, but that's not how superman wins either... the only way to beat him (outside of final crisis were batman shot him and was 1/3 the kill... I can't remember what wonderwoman did with the lasso but superman sang him to death as the final blow) is to outsmart him

I only watched the clip, but Batman didn't fight Darkseid at all. He walked in, told Darkseid the situation, then got punched, thrown through a wall, and punched some more. He didn't throw a single punch or kick back at Darkseid. There was no fight, there was Darkseid kicking him around.

And, again, sure Batman was able to use the Hell Spores to get Darkseid to stand down. But, here is the question, Darkseid comes to Gotham, where there are no Hell Spores to explode the planet Earth. What does Batman do then? "Well, he'd find some other way to defeat him!" Like what?

The problem is, it can't be anything in Batman's utility belt. It can't be anything in the batcave. It can't be anything Batman normally has access to in any normal comic, because NONE of that can phase Darkseid. Which means it has to be something ADDED to the scenario for the sole purpose of Batman being smart enough to use it to win. This is why a lot of people say Batman's greatest power is Plot Armor, because at this scale where many other heroes can comfortably operate, he needs special things added to the story specifically to allow him to operate and be effective.

lets talk durability... lets talk getting hit by Solomon Grundy and amazo (with superman str) and surviving. Lets talk fighting the same Parademons that can hit superman (not a lot just a little, but enough that in mass they are a minor threat) and that superman can't always 1 shot... lets talk about The white Martians 'killing' him by taking down his batplane to find out he tanked a crash and was fine (if that isn't D&D hp I don't know what is) then somehow in a super advanced alien city with super sensors and 6 Martians with super senses (1 with speed equal to flash) moves around unseen and gets the JL who were all taken out free.

The number of times he has NOT been able to use his skills in the fight WAY outnumber the times he OWNED (not participated owned) the fight.

TORG has a great system for playing a batman like character next to super beings... in a fight choose a skill, any skill you can come up with a quick explanation for. Roll that as an 'attack' and if you hit an ally gains a buff or an enemy a debuff.

Sure, let's talk durability. Let's talk about him being stabbed with a knife and bleeding. Let's talk him being shot with a pistol and bleeding. Let's talk about him getting hit with a baseball bat and feeling it, or being punched by Harley Quinn and feeling it. He's completely inconsistent in terms of durability. But, we can default to the truism. He is a man. A human with no powers. He's stronger, faster, and tougher than normal, but he isn't superpower levels of tough.

And again, you present me with a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The entire Justice League is captured by the White Martians, so Batman uses his stealth and deception skills (which I've never doubted he has) on a SOLO MISSION. Why does that Solo Mission exist? Why did the writers have the entire league captured and write an entire sub-plot about Batman using one of his greatest skills to free them and allow them to fight again? Because they need a way to show Batman is just as much as a hero as the others, so they create a special situation that only his specific skill set can solve. And once he has done so, everyone else continues doing what they do.

And yet that is not what happens... if gotham gets nuked batman's plot armor (read HP) protect him.

unless he can... like when he lands a punch and knocks him back...

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

or he shoots him with a god killer bullet

How Batman Finally Killed Darkseid in DC's Universe

Batman killed Darkseid in Final Crisis, but how?

screenrant.com

or the time he went to resurrect his son...

or like when batman 1 shot wonder woman punching her in the stomach, or in a cross over kicked the wind out of hulk, or the time he boxed wonder womans ears...

for a 'normal guy' he fights 'can't believe they are not gods' all the time

or the time he kicked the reality warping specter (gods wraith... not a god THEY God with a capital G)

Batman "punching above his weight" celebration! - Batman - Comic Vine

Of all the characters in the DC or Marvel universe, Batman is the one who most consistently punches above his weight. Its something that his fans lov

comicvine.gamespot.com

And again, you keep making my points for me.

How does he survive a nuke? Plot Armor
How does he kill Darkseid? God Killing Bullet he finds, or magic armor he gets.

Some of these are also just blatantly inconsistent. Which is what happens when you have so many different writers and different continuity. IF Wonder Woman can have moutains thrown at her and be fine, then a ma with only human strength couldn't hit her stomach hard enough to deflate her diaphram. It simply is impossible. But, Batman was the hero, and he needed to win the fight, so they tried to come up with a way to make that happen, such as saying that an immortal warrior who has trained for centuries has never had someone hit them in the stomach before.

so a threat to a leader striker defender and control type characters was above there pay grade, but someone gave them a quest to get an artafact and it turned the tide...

that sounds very D&D

Sure, it sounds very DnD, but that isn't the point.

The Ulitmate Nullifier is the exact same threat to Galactus in the hands of a five year old child as it is in the hands of Earth's Mightiest Heroes. The story isn't about how the Fantastic Four can come up with a plan to stop this great threat, the story is that after failing repeatedly, they have a cosmic god come, tell them where the cosmic god weapon is, and they use that weapon to win.

To turn it into DnD terms again, if you just had to go to the Temple of Lathander and pick up the "Wand of Instantly killing Orcus with no save" have you defeated Orcus? Technically yes, but it was nothing you actually mattered for, what mattered was having the "I Win" button.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I agree with your premise but not your results...

that 'special writing' done to 'make batman useful' is what WotC has to do... make it so the rogue or the fighter has abilities on par with the wizard...
give batman 'cheats' to be superman and wonderwomans equal.

they did this with the warlord and fighter in 4e.

I don't see any points of disagreement between what you are saying and what I am saying.

and again the failure isn't the adventure, it is the fighter design.

Yes, I agree.

so we need to fix the fighter

Yes, I agree.

Did you think I was arguing something else?

 

[Micah Sweet]

and yet this is not a level up thread, nor is it on the level up board. It is like the people who go to every WotC D&D thread to say you should be playing pathfinder (that got shut down quick here... but telling people not to voice there opinion on the playtest does not)

again not just you, in the last month I have been told by at least 5 posters on 2 doszen occasions that I shouldn't be posting what I am (they all have 'reasons')

and it is our right to discuss that, and BY BOARD RULES, nobody should be trying to shut that down or telling us it isn't worth talking about... but again Enworld is no longer the firendly place to talk D&D. You can disagree and say "I don't want that" but telling people...

is needless gatekeeping and trying to STOP the conversation...

then say that... not to not talk about it

I'm not saying don't talk about it, and if I gave that impression I'm sorry. I'm saying that I have the same right to advocate what I want as you to do to advocate what you want, and I don't agree with you. Isn't that ok?

And, this isn't a Level Up thread,, no, but this isn't a 6e thread either.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The comic books of course are always doing the leverage by authorial fiat, ttrpgs actually can make that fiat more of a player choice for instance and have them mechanically implemented like in fate where Frodo gets a mega ton of fate points narratively implemented and Gandalf gets nearly none.

TTRPGS can definitely do that, but D&D never can.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I only watched the clip, but Batman didn't fight Darkseid at all. He walked in, told Darkseid the situation, then got punched, thrown through a wall, and punched some more. He didn't throw a single punch or kick back at Darkseid. There was no fight, there was Darkseid kicking him around.

I didn't watch it (maybe when it came out I did) I read the book, and he clearly goes in and punches stating a fight...

And, again, sure Batman was able to use the Hell Spores to get Darkseid to stand down. But, here is the question, Darkseid comes to Gotham, where there are no Hell Spores to explode the planet Earth. What does Batman do then? "Well, he'd find some other way to defeat him!" Like what?

like that is batmans power 'pull BS out of belt'

The problem is, it can't be anything in Batman's utility belt.

nth metal knuckle covers... of some new god tech (maybe he has a mother box in there)

It can't be anything in the batcave.

wait the batcave that has things that beat the JLA... that batcave?

It can't be anything Batman normally has access to in any normal comic, because NONE of that can phase Darkseid.

there is no such thing as normal... it depends on the story he ALWAYS has what he needs to win.

Which means it has to be something ADDED to the scenario for the sole purpose of Batman being smart enough to use it to win. This is why a lot of people say Batman's greatest power is Plot Armor, because at this scale where many other heroes can comfortably operate, he needs special things added to the story specifically to allow him to operate and be effective.

the same as the fighter should be

Sure, let's talk durability. Let's talk about him being stabbed with a knife and bleeding.

so are you skipping the scans I showed? how about the time that superman was mind contoled to think batman was doomsday he went all out thinking he was hitting doomsday, and even when batman went down he lived through FULL POWER SUPERMAN PUNCHES...

Let's talk him being shot with a pistol and bleeding.

scan from a JL issue or cross over issue please.

Let's talk about him getting hit with a baseball bat and feeling it, or being punched by Harley Quinn and feeling it.

How about when Harley hits wonder woman and she feels it.

He's completely inconsistent in terms of durability.

that's my point... he survives what ever you throw at him

He is a man. A human with no powers. He's stronger, faster, and tougher than normal, but he isn't superpower levels of tough.

yet he has durability feats like tanking darkseid fighting wonder woman and surviving a full power kill ready kryptonian

And again, you present me with a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The entire Justice League is captured by the White Martians, so Batman uses his stealth and deception skills (which I've never doubted he has) on a SOLO MISSION.

after he survived the fight were superman Green lantern flash and wonder woman were captured.

Why does that Solo Mission exist?

cause the team lost a fight and he was the one to be able to still be active.

Because they need a way to show Batman is just as much as a hero as the others, so they create a special situation that only his specific skill set can solve. And once he has done so, everyone else continues doing what they do.

you do realize that batman is the rogue, the monk and/or the warlord... the fighter fighter Ranger other monk and sorcerer were down...

How does he survive a nuke? Plot Armor

how does a barbarian survive getting hit 3 times by a giants axe... HP aka plot armor

How does he kill Darkseid? God Killing Bullet he finds, or magic armor he gets.

he do a quest to find it... 1 of those he litterally just pick up off panel. His ability to always be prepared and always have the right tool for the job.

Some of these are also just blatantly inconsistent.

yes

Which is what happens when you have so many different writers and different continuity. IF Wonder Woman can have moutains thrown at her and be fine, then a ma with only human strength couldn't hit her stomach hard enough to deflate her diaphram.

but he did... you don't get to argue he didn't. So YES batman is good enough to land a blow that hurts someone that is able to have a mountain thrown at her... and he does so without powers. That is the story. The Rogue/Monk/Fighter multi class went up with 0 prep and 0 magic items and kicked the god knocking the wind out of her... and in other scans knocks her out or boxes her ears... He DOES this without powers or upgrades... that is peak human in that world (yes very fantasy world)

It simply is impossible.

but it happened so many times that I had multi scans... just him beating wonder woman we have 3 examples.

But, Batman was the hero, and he needed to win the fight, so they tried to come up with a way to make that happen, such as saying that an immortal warrior who has trained for centuries has never had someone hit them in the stomach before.

again, that is what he does he wins.

Sure, it sounds very DnD, but that isn't the point.

sure it is... the 4 are a team a blaster a stealth/defender a thinker/planner with limited power and a big bruiser... they can and do fight things way lower CR (mole man looking at you) and equal CR solos (hi doom) and WAY higher CR (annilas and molecule man) and sometimes they run into something they can't just fight (here is galactus) and they need to go get the ring to mt doom... wait I mean ultimate nullifier.

The Ulitmate Nullifier is the exact same threat to Galactus in the hands of a five year old child as it is in the hands of Earth's Mightiest Heroes.

citation needed... the Nullifier is used by will power and can destroy entire sections of reality... how did the 5 year old manage this feat?

The story isn't about how the Fantastic Four can come up with a plan to stop this great threat, the story is that after failing repeatedly, they have a cosmic god come, tell them where the cosmic god weapon is, and they use that weapon to win.

right... but it is 1 story of that... remember the time they locked him away, or the time they killed him (my favorite was having him feed on hyperstorm and locking both away)

To turn it into DnD terms again, if you just had to go to the Temple of Lathander and pick up the "Wand of Instantly killing Orcus with no save" have you defeated Orcus? Technically yes, but it was nothing you actually mattered for, what mattered was having the "I Win" button.

In DnD terms on there 10th or 11th adventure after leveling up fighting monsters and Dr Doom (yes and mole man) they found that Orcus was the main villian of a new adventure, and they could not handle him head on but the DM gave them a side quest that allowed them to stop Orcus...

 

[HammerMan]

Kay I knew this would be controversial but I never expected to come back to arguments of weather or not Batman CAN do what was documented in the comics as Batman DID do.

Edit: power scalding in comics means when Batman is in a cosmic story he is cosmic if he is in a street level adventure he is street level.

 

[Krachek]

What makes Batman beat Superman, or any other opponents?
first the writer feel that´s a good idea, and realize that his audience will like it too!
Then he write a story to make it happens.
If the audience is ready for the story it’s a success, if not protest and shame.
Batman were not able to beat or even imagine a fight with Superman in 1950.

 

[Garthanos]

and yet this is not a level up thread, nor is it on the level up board. It is like the people who go to every WotC D&D thread to say you should be playing pathfinder

is needless gatekeeping and trying to STOP the conversation...

The irony is Level Up has many factors that make it more like 4e (like maneuvers that are more epic in flavor for instance)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The irony is Level Up has many factors that make it more like 4e (like maneuvers that are more epic in flavor for instance)

Im sure, and I still mean to look into it if I can get some player buy in from my group

edit: and just FYI we JUST aggreged for one of us (the guy that owns a comic store) will buy the Rokogun book and we are looking at those martial options

 

[Micah Sweet]

The irony is Level Up has many factors that make it more like 4e (like maneuvers that are more epic in flavor for instance)

The fact that they're organized independently and shared between classes (who have differing levels of access) makes a big difference to me.