D&D 5E Merlin and Arthur or Batman and zatana

it seems the game you want had its time in the sun from 2009 to 2014

This is making me feel that enworld is no longer a place to discus D&D... I am pretty sick of being told what is and is not okay to talk about and what is and is not a waste of time... this is a god damn playtest with OPEN feedback, what time would be the right time to discuss what we want if NOT during the damn open playtest!!!!

Edit: and don't get me twisted, it's not just you (althouth it has been you more then once) it is a new thing to do around here
 
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In his own stories, of course, Batman is a rogue.
yeah there are 3 or 4 batman in the same month sometimes... the genius tech/stratagist that can take on new gods (in JLA and or cross overs), the rogue that is in trouble facing a guy in a green suit leaving riddles (in batman), and the greatest detective who can figure out every clue in moments (in detective) was 1 month back in 2015 for instance.
 


He does stop Darkseid though, on multiple occasions, or at least frustrate him, which for such a massive literally godlike villain is an actual feat. He specifically says in he DCAU that no one has ever evaded his Omega Beam, meaning Batman achieved something literally no one else has ever done. (This is immediately before the deservedly famous "world of cardboard" speech from Superman.)

Right, think about this in context for a moment. The goal of the adventure is to the kill the BBEG. And one player's most impressive feat is "I survived a single attack from him!" I don't care that no one else has dodged them. Superman, Wonderwoman, Shazam? They all took the beams head-on and lived. Green Lantern has stopped them with his ring. And then they ACTUALLY HIT DARKSEID. Batman threw a smoke bomb, dodged a single attack, and the entire point was to buy the second needed for Superman to enter the fight and take over.

That isn't how equals fight.

Then, later on in the DCAU when Darkseid is up to his usual tricks but with Kara instead of Clark, Batman's intelligence (and, to a certain extent, Darkseid's belief that the human Batman is capable of ruthlessness that Diana and Clark are not) is what saves the day and defeats Darkseid; the physical power and ability to resist Darkseid's assaults pales in comparison.

Looked this up, because the context made no sense. In what world does Darkseid get defeated because a guy with a code to never kill is "too ruthless"

Well, it starts with them being on Apokalipse, not Earth. Then it continues with a fairly standard Deus Ex Machina. Batman has activated Darkseid's weapons in a move that could destroy the entire planet, and won't disarm them until Darkseid admits defeat.

That's just comic book writing, frankly. The Hell Spores defeated Darkseid, Batman was just able to gain access to them because Darkseid didn't bother to try and fight Batman, and Batman was able to break a simple encryption. Again, this says nothing about Batman's ability to FIGHT Darkseid, because he can't. This is the closest he can come, and it was a suicide pact using Darkseid's own stockpile of planet-destroying weaponry.

So even here, at least depending on medium, Batman holds his own. He does so by changing the rules of the game. In the former case, he knows he can't directly stop Darkseid but he can distract and slow him while the others get their own work done. "That man won't quit as long as he can draw a breath. None of my teammates will." Evading the Omega Beam is a neat, canned example of him changing the rules by running just long enough to get a sacrificial enemy (a Parademon mook, in this case) to take the hit in his place. Defeating Darkseid in the latter case involved being smart enough to hack through Darkseid's security protocols protecting Apokolips' supplies of WMDs...and programming them to all go off simultaneously unless Batman countermands the order.

There are some other cases which involve actual combat victories, but those are from comics I haven't read (and usually involve some kind of special weapon that exploits a weakness a la kryptonite or a fancy power suit that bridges the power gap.) But it's worth noting that Batman is one of only three superheroes Darkseid actually plots around and against, the other two being Superman and Wonder Woman. And according to at least one comic run I've heard about, it was Batman that Darkseid tried to clone into an army to serve him, not Clark or Diana. That, likewise, seems a particular mark of respect or even admiration.

But again, you seem to miss the point. I never said "Batman can't act as a distraction", I never said "Batman can't activate Darkseid's own bombs to destroy the planet they are on" I said "Batman can't fight Darkseid"

And really, unless you depower Darkseid (as is done in some of the shows) he can't. All of his "powers" of wealth and connection can't close that gap. He doesn't have the strength, speed, or durability to actually fight the enemy. And what happens to Batman if Darkseid nukes Gotham? Batman is nuked. He can't survive a nuke, unless he spots it in time to reach an anti-nuclear bunker.

Darkseid plans around Batman, because Batman is smart, and can therefore give plans to Superman and Wonder Woman to carry out. But he cannot fight Darkseid toe to toe. Batman's Powers are only useful if they are MADE useful. Meanwhile, it is incredibly difficult to put a character like Zatana (warp reality) or Superman (massive suite of abilities) into a situation where they cannot use their powers to contribute.
 

This is making me feel that enworld is no longer a place to discus D&D... I am pretty sick of being told what is and is not okay to talk about and what is and is not a waste of time... this is a god damn playtest with OPEN feedback, what time would be the right time to discuss what we want if NOT during the damn open playtest!!!!

Edit: and don't get me twisted, it's not just you (althouth it has been you more then once) it is a new thing to do around here
I will explain my position. As you know, I'm a fan of Level Up. My preferred game is Level Up with assorted carefully selected additional options. I am following the 1DD roll out because they might have some ideas I can use.

What I'm seeing are a number of 4e fans on this site who seem very much to want 6e to be more like 4e. While you're certainly entitled to your opinions, that is most definitely not what I want. I'm hoping there are some bits and bobs in 6e that are worth using for me, and quite frankly the direction they're already looking to go is away from what I want.
 

You know the Fantastic Four has stopped Galactus multiple times, right? You don't think it was by brute force, do you? Ben Grimm hits hard, sure, but not hard enough to do much against an entity that eats planets.

"Stop" and "beat the living crap out of" are not synonymous.

Sure, it wasn't brute force. Do you remember what it was?

The Ultimate Nullifer, a literal Deus Ex Machina written for the sole purpose of defeating Galactus. And did Reed Richards invent it? Nope. Uatu the Watcher, another Cosmic God Being told them about it, and where to find it, and they just went and picked it up.

A plan they have used MULTIPLE TIMES. Because they cannot defeat Galactus, instead they have to use God-Tech gifted to them by another powerful being to scare him off. This would be the equivalent in DnD of saying that a 1st level Cleric was able to defeat Orcus because when confronted with the being their God gifted them the Wand of "Slay Orcus Right Now with No Save". It wasn't anything the player did, they weren't even particularly clever or smart, they just were given the answer.
 

Yeah...sorry @Chaosmancer I'm done here. You've written off clear examples of defeat (which does not mean "put down via violence") simply because they don't meet some arbitrary standard of directness. There's no point in further discussion.
 

I dunno man. He accumulates a pretty impressive Bat Family very quickly in pretty much every form of media I'm familiar with.
I mentioned he has a need for companions to keep him from going so dark... he and the authors are aware of that but when you are usually fighting with just one squire you are probably not a Warlord
 


I dunno man. He accumulates a pretty impressive Bat Family very quickly in pretty much every form of media I'm familiar with.
I suppose the difference is that in his own media the bat family members have the same fundamental skillset as he does of a rogue so there’s nothing they can’t do that he likely can’t already do and do it better, his ‘warlord’ abilities are more useful with the league because they have abilities bats doesn’t have himself so ‘commanding’ them occurs more often.
 

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