D&D 5E (2014) Merlin and Arthur or Batman and zatana

[GMforPowergamers]

But again, you seem to miss the point. I never said "Batman can't act as a distraction", I never said "Batman can't activate Darkseid's own bombs to destroy the planet they are on" I said "Batman can't fight Darkseid"

And really, unless you depower Darkseid (as is done in some of the shows) he can't.

I can not stress enough, batman knew he won before he entered the throne room. HOWEVER he beat up a different new god, took his armor and then went and punched Darkseid.... cause he couldn't just walk in and start talking he went in and fought him. This is not the only example of him being in the fight when logic says he shouldn't (cause he's batman) but it sure does prove he beat him.

Now before we say that superman would go and punch Darkseid too... yeah he would, but that's not how superman wins either... the only way to beat him (outside of final crisis were batman shot him and was 1/3 the kill... I can't remember what wonderwoman did with the lasso but superman sang him to death as the final blow) is to outsmart him

All of his "powers" of wealth and connection can't close that gap. He doesn't have the strength, speed, or durability to actually fight the enemy.

lets talk durability... lets talk getting hit by Solomon Grundy and amazo (with superman str) and surviving. Lets talk fighting the same Parademons that can hit superman (not a lot just a little, but enough that in mass they are a minor threat) and that superman can't always 1 shot... lets talk about The white Martians 'killing' him by taking down his batplane to find out he tanked a crash and was fine (if that isn't D&D hp I don't know what is) then somehow in a super advanced alien city with super sensors and 6 Martians with super senses (1 with speed equal to flash) moves around unseen and gets the JL who were all taken out free.

The number of times he has NOT been able to use his skills in the fight WAY outnumber the times he OWNED (not participated owned) the fight.

TORG has a great system for playing a batman like character next to super beings... in a fight choose a skill, any skill you can come up with a quick explanation for. Roll that as an 'attack' and if you hit an ally gains a buff or an enemy a debuff.

And what happens to Batman if Darkseid nukes Gotham? Batman is nuked. He can't survive a nuke, unless he spots it in time to reach an anti-nuclear bunker.

And yet that is not what happens... if gotham gets nuked batman's plot armor (read HP) protect him.

Darkseid plans around Batman, because Batman is smart, and can therefore give plans to Superman and Wonder Woman to carry out. But he cannot fight Darkseid toe to toe.

unless he can... like when he lands a punch and knocks him back...

Redirect Notice

or he shoots him with a god killer bullet

How Batman Finally Killed Darkseid in DC's Universe

Batman killed Darkseid in Final Crisis, but how?

screenrant.com

or the time he went to resurrect his son...

Batman's Powers are only useful if they are MADE useful. Meanwhile, it is incredibly difficult to put a character like Zatana (warp reality) or Superman (massive suite of abilities) into a situation where they cannot use their powers to contribute.

or like when batman 1 shot wonder woman punching her in the stomach, or in a cross over kicked the wind out of hulk, or the time he boxed wonder womans ears...

for a 'normal guy' he fights 'can't believe they are not gods' all the time

or the time he kicked the reality warping specter (gods wraith... not a god THEY God with a capital G)

Batman "punching above his weight" celebration! - Batman - Comic Vine

Of all the characters in the DC or Marvel universe, Batman is the one who most consistently punches above his weight. Its something that his fans lov

comicvine.gamespot.com

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I will explain my position. As you know, I'm a fan of Level Up. My preferred game is Level Up with assorted carefully selected additional options. I am following the 1DD roll out because they might have some ideas I can use.

and yet this is not a level up thread, nor is it on the level up board. It is like the people who go to every WotC D&D thread to say you should be playing pathfinder (that got shut down quick here... but telling people not to voice there opinion on the playtest does not)

again not just you, in the last month I have been told by at least 5 posters on 2 doszen occasions that I shouldn't be posting what I am (they all have 'reasons')

What I'm seeing are a number of 4e fans on this site who seem very much to want 6e to be more like 4e.

and it is our right to discuss that, and BY BOARD RULES, nobody should be trying to shut that down or telling us it isn't worth talking about... but again Enworld is no longer the firendly place to talk D&D. You can disagree and say "I don't want that" but telling people...

it seems the game you want had its time in the sun from 2009 to 2014

is needless gatekeeping and trying to STOP the conversation...

While you're certainly entitled to your opinions, that is most definitely not what I want. I'm hoping there are some bits and bobs in 6e that are worth using for me, and quite frankly the direction they're already looking to go is away from what I want.

then say that... not to not talk about it

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Sure, it wasn't brute force. Do you remember what it was?

The Ultimate Nullifer, a literal Deus Ex Machina written for the sole purpose of defeating Galactus. And did Reed Richards invent it? Nope. Uatu the Watcher, another Cosmic God Being told them about it, and where to find it, and they just went and picked it up.

A plan they have used MULTIPLE TIMES. Because they cannot defeat Galactus, instead they have to use God-Tech gifted to them by another powerful being to scare him off. This would be the equivalent in DnD of saying that a 1st level Cleric was able to defeat Orcus because when confronted with the being their God gifted them the Wand of "Slay Orcus Right Now with No Save". It wasn't anything the player did, they weren't even particularly clever or smart, they just were given the answer.

so a threat to a leader striker defender and control type characters was above there pay grade, but someone gave them a quest to get an artafact and it turned the tide...

that sounds very D&D

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Which is yet another reason why comic books aren’t necessarily a great template for TTRPGS, the characters can vary a lot more from story to story and have more opportunities for “off-screen” resources.

right cause it is ONLY JLA not batman comics

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yeah...sorry @Chaosmancer I'm done here. You've written off clear examples of defeat (which does not mean "put down via violence") simply because they don't meet some arbitrary standard of directness. There's no point in further discussion.

So, you refuse to engage with my premise at all, and instead wish to argue some arbitrary writing and that dodging is defeat.

Fine, I'll be more direct.

If you have a character who needs to have special attention given to them, and a sub-adventure specifically written so they can participate, then they are not as effective in the adventure as those you don't need to do that for.

Superman's powerset is useful regardless of the scenario you put him in, unless you have specifically removed his powers from the scenario.
Zatana's powerset is useful regardless of the scenario you put her in, unless you have specifically removed her powers from the scenario.
Batman's powerset is useful some of the time, but it is possible to write a scenario where it is not useful at all, unless specific narrative effort is made to FORCE it to be useful.


This applies to RPGs like DnD as well. It is actually quite difficult to devise a scenario where a Bard, Cleric or Wizard's power set is useless to them. But it is trivially easy to devise a scenario where the Fighter will struggle to contribute unless you specifically FORCE the fighter's skill set into the spotlight.

If you have a character who is useful all of the time, and a character who is only useful some of the time, then you don't have two equally useful characters.

 

[Krachek]

Heroes are magnifier of our current inner state and social environment.
Writers follow the flow around them, and makes Heroes evolve to magnify actual needs.
Logic, coherence and accuracy is then a lesser concern.

 

[Garthanos]

This applies to RPGs like DnD as well. It is actually quite difficult to devise a scenario where a Bard, Cleric or Wizard's power set is useless to them. But it is trivially easy to devise a scenario where the Fighter will struggle to contribute unless you specifically FORCE the fighter's skill set into the spotlight.

If you have a character who is useful all of the time, and a character who is only useful some of the time, then you don't have two equally useful characters.

The comic books of course are always doing the leverage by authorial fiat, ttrpgs actually can make that fiat more of a player choice for instance and have them mechanically implemented like in fate where Frodo gets a mega ton of fate points narratively implemented and Gandalf gets nearly none.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Superman's powerset is useful regardless of the scenario you put him in, unless you have specifically removed his powers from the scenario.
Zatana's powerset is useful regardless of the scenario you put her in, unless you have specifically removed her powers from the scenario.
Batman's powerset is useful some of the time, but it is possible to write a scenario where it is not useful at all, unless specific narrative effort is made to FORCE it to be useful.

I agree with your premise but not your results...

that 'special writing' done to 'make batman useful' is what WotC has to do... make it so the rogue or the fighter has abilities on par with the wizard...
give batman 'cheats' to be superman and wonderwomans equal.

they did this with the warlord and fighter in 4e.

This applies to RPGs like DnD as well. It is actually quite difficult to devise a scenario where a Bard, Cleric or Wizard's power set is useless to them. But it is trivially easy to devise a scenario where the Fighter will struggle to contribute unless you specifically FORCE the fighter's skill set into the spotlight.

and again the failure isn't the adventure, it is the fighter design.

If you have a character who is useful all of the time, and a character who is only useful some of the time, then you don't have two equally useful characters.

so we need to fix the fighter

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Heroes are magnifier of our current inner state and social environment.
Writers follow the flow around them, and makes Heroes evolve to magnify actual needs.
Logic, coherence and accuracy is then a lesser concern.

D&D needs to keep up

 

[Krachek]

D&D needs to keep up

Indeed DnD is a kind of « Build your own magnifying hero. »
And actually some people freakout when the realize that they have the control over the magnifying lense.