Messing around with initiative rules

Matthias

Explorer
Off and on I've toyed with the idea of using a non-d20 roll for initiative checks. The implementation of this would necessarily require some conversion work with the rules that pertain to initiative. I had thought to resort to a percentile roll, with appropriate houseruling of Improved Initiative and changing modifiers to Dex score itself instead of score modifier, but this seemed like creating an overblown solution to the main issue I have with d20-based initiative checks, which is resolving ties between PCs, and consuming a little bit of extra time to ask players for this or that number to see who got to act first.

But then I considered, why not go the opposite direction, and embrace simultaneous actions? Use the d% for initiative rolls, add Dex score not modifier (and Wisdom score for monks) and so on. And go one step further: In this paradigm, a given round is divided into discrete phases...everyone who takes their turn in the same phase is considered to be acting simultaneously. Not that they are acting on the same single tick of a clock's second hand. "Simultaneous" only means their actions cannot as a consequence directly counter or prevent anyone else's actions in the same phase. This doesn't mean two actions happening simultaneously cannot influence each other as their immediate consequences interact with each other, but as a matter of course, one character should not be able to completely "supersede" another if they are supposed to be acting at the same time.

Now, these phases consist of a range of 10 initiative counts. Again, this is not a measure of time, only a statement about whose actions might coincide with whose. Everyone with a 10's initiative acts simultaneously, everyone in the 20's count acts simultaneously (and before all the 10's), the 30's initiatives act before the 20's and 10's, and so on.

As an illustration, two fighters square off against six goblins. Here is the order of initiative:

89 ftr #1

57 ftr #2
54 goblin #1
51 goblin #2

45 goblin #3

38 goblin #4
37 goblin #5

28 goblin #6

(These numbers are completely arbitrary and broken up into phases for convenience)

Fighter #1 acts first, and in his turn he drops goblin #5 with a lucky critical hit from a javelin. Easy enough--goblin #6 doesn't even get to do anything this encounter. Proceeding down the list, we have Fighter #2 and two goblins. The GM as a courtesy lets the player act first, and his PC drops goblin #3 who happens to be the nearest monster to him. So goblin #3 doesn't get to do anything either. Goblins #1 and #2 now get to act, and they rush and double up on Fighter #2, and wound him pretty good. Goblins #4 and #6 now get to act, in that order (#3 being too busy being dead to do anything else) and they also gang up on Fighter #2.

Next round:


89 ftr #1

57 ftr #2
54 goblin #1
51 goblin #2

38 goblin #4

28 goblin #6

Fighter #1 comes to the aid of his friend, and takes down goblin #1. Fighter #2 on his turn (GM courtesy again) lashes out at goblin #2 and drops him. Goblin #1 defends his buddy, crushing Fighter #2 and put him into negative HP. BUT now, Goblin #2 still gets to act. He may be dead on his feet, but as we are doing simultaneous actions, Fighter #2's kill shot is only fully resolved at the end of the phase. Goblin #2 throws himself at Fighter #2, reducing the poor PC to negative Con, and then promptly drops dead himself. Goblins #4 and #6, cowards that they are, run away and live to fight another day. The End.

There is an extra portion of "action entanglement" inherent in this approach to initiative. This can be readily observed in situations in which two characters acting "simultaneously" in a single phase want to take actions which one may expect to be mutually exclusive of each other. To whit, if character A's intended action is fully resolved first, character B's action is either rendered impossible, pointless, or even detrimental. But if character B's intended action is fully resolved before A's, the opposite occurs. The simplest and most straightforward example that could be given here is that A and B both want to move to the same square and act on the same phase. Rules As Written forbid both A and B from getting their way, since no creature is permitted to end their turn on an occupied square. "Someone has to go first." There seems to be a paradox at first--but is there really one, at least one that cannot be creatively resolved by a GM?

If the GM is willing to play around with the RAW--as is his right--he could easily rule that both creatures fail to enter the square, but each ends their movement in the last square just before the destination, and each suffers 1d6 subdual damage from the unintentional mutual bull rush. Or if the size difference is more than one category's worth, the GM might rule the larger creature wins by default, or he may rule that the creature with the greater speed wins, or whatever.

To explore a more creative example, suppose the party rogue has decided to disable a certain trap in the room which causes the room to be suddenly partitioned off by walls of force into lots of tiny little airtight cubicles (and his action results in a botch which will trigger the trap anyway). In the same phase, the party wizard desires to escape the room--into which a big nasty has just entered--and proceeds to cast a teleportation spell (with everyone having remained in physical contact the entire time) to get the entire party to safety. In summary--the rogue cannot both trigger the trap and escape the room via teleportation (via connected contact with his wizard friend). Why worry about who acts first, when you as the GM can make up a creative ruling on the spot that resolves the paradox in a humorous (or maybe terrifying) fashion? The wizard escapes alone, the wizard and everyone BUT the rogue escapes, or every PC escapes but the energy surge from the many walls of force being triggered fries the teleportation, and the party arrives in a very strange and unknown place.


Certainly these house rules go against the mostly-universal "d20 principle" that underlies Pathfinder as d20 game system. Certainly the same effect could be achieved by retaining the existing rules and dividing the d20 roll into "phases" of smaller ranges: 1-5; 6-10; 11-15, 16-20, 21-25, and so on. Slightly less elegant, I think. Or maybe even keep it the same. 1-10, 11-20, 21 to 30 (and if it's ever needed, 31-40). I guess it all depends on how much "simultaneity" a GM is willing to put up with.

Or if one really must chuck their d20 and roll it too, one could do initiative checks this way: roll 20 and multiply by 10 in place of the percentile roll mentioned above. Add Dex score and +20 for Improved Initiative and all that. A nominal scale of 200 may not "embrace the simultaneous" like a d% would, but the incidence of initiative ties will be slightly more tolerable, and adding a Dexterity score to a number divisible by 10 will be slightly less annoying.
 
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Or you could just rule that tied initiative means simultaneous action, avoiding any wholesale change. It won't be common but will happen, and cases requiring adjudication of simultaneous action get reduced.

So if Rogue and Goblin are simultaneous on the first round of combat, is Goblin flat footed so Rogue gets his sneak attack?
 

Or you could just rule that tied initiative means simultaneous action, avoiding any wholesale change. It won't be common but will happen, and cases requiring adjudication of simultaneous action get reduced.

So if Rogue and Goblin are simultaneous on the first round of combat, is Goblin flat footed so Rogue gets his sneak attack?

I'd say yes. If the Rogue was lying in wait and got a surprise round, sure.

Now if both were surprised, neither expecting to encounter the other, and if the Goblin happened to have a couple levels of Rogue himself, and neither of the two had Uncanny Dodge, then they should both be able to sneak attack each other. They're both operating on gut reactions and trained reflexes alone. Their eyes, hands, et al. already know what to do and how to do it without any conscious thought behind it. A split-second reaction, and they both lunge straight for the face. :lol:
 

I like it. I too hate the 'roll a d20, add dex' initiative rules for much the same reason you do, it seems. I always liked the older initiative system because you had more simultaneous instances like this because of Speed Factor. I've been trying to find a balance between the complicated 1 and 2 e and the way-too-streamlined 3e. I'd like to see them come up with a simplified version of Speed Factor where you get a bonus to initiative with lighter weapons or certain spells.
 

Speed factors only work if you reroll initiative every round, and declare your action before it's rolled. I don't have much interest in doing the "declare, roll, act" thing again - I always hated that.
 

Speed factors only work if you reroll initiative every round, and declare your action before it's rolled. I don't have much interest in doing the "declare, roll, act" thing again - I always hated that.
yeah, its time consuming, but I liked the extra dimension to the combat, and the way it actually had multiple characters doing different things simultaneously and resolving at different times. I want to see a middle ground, like maybe a cyclical system like 3e that adds speed factor after the action performed and 'moves' character initiative, but that seems complicated too :\
 

There's an issue I have with this. Your simultaneous actions idea is one-sided to fight against casters, as they could quite possibly end up wasting spells during an encounter by casting them at an enemy that was killed by the fighter's strike on the same initiative count, but was yet unresolved damage that ends up killing it. This system is even more flawed if you're playing 4E (which I doubt is happening with your game, since anyone playing an AD&D initiative system would never lower themselves to playing that system) since it is so laden with abilities for each class.
 

There's an issue I have with this. Your simultaneous actions idea is one-sided to fight against casters, as they could quite possibly end up wasting spells during an encounter by casting them at an enemy that was killed by the fighter's strike on the same initiative count, but was yet unresolved damage that ends up killing it. This system is even more flawed if you're playing 4E (which I doubt is happening with your game, since anyone playing an AD&D initiative system would never lower themselves to playing that system) since it is so laden with abilities for each class.
Actually its not. First, if a wizard and even a party can't use some good ole role-playing to communicate a battle plan with each other that's their fault. Its about variety. There are weapons, and yes, even spells that people consider lame or 'sub-optimal' (snicker), when in the old system there was a reason to use a dagger besides 'i don't have a short sword', and there were spells that could be used that perhaps weren't as powerful or even versatile but could be used on the fly.
4e made this distinction by creating rituals versus powers (yeah, I know a little about 4e), and it fixed a few of the problems but I think it hurts the practicality and utility of some of the spells. Think of this as a grey area in between. BTW wizard and bard are in fact my favorite classes :)
 
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...if a wizard and even a party can't use some good ole role-playing to communicate a battle plan with each other that's their fault.

You have a good point here. I'm all for teams communicating and forming battle strategy, and I suppose that this does award the party more for their teamwork than the basic d20 system. However, I also don't want to necessarily punish them for NOT communicating (though, I'm not completely above it).

And don't worry, it's not a bad thing that you know a little about 4E - Everybody strays occasionally.
 

You have a good point here. I'm all for teams communicating and forming battle strategy, and I suppose that this does award the party more for their teamwork than the basic d20 system. However, I also don't want to necessarily punish them for NOT communicating (though, I'm not completely above it).

And don't worry, it's not a bad thing that you know a little about 4E - Everybody strays occasionally.
I guess old D and D just saw it as a part of the things that can go wrong in combat. I've just always taken it as an inconvenience but I can see where it would suck if you were a low level caster, who only gets one or two spells to begin with.
I think it would be neat to see a system that changes your initiative after you take your turn depending on what you did. That would fix the slowness and the wasted spell problem, but would require tracking the initiative round to round, which might be just as bad.
 

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