Mestil's Acid Breath

[Staffan]

In Magic of Faerûn, there's a spell called Mestil's Acid Breath. I don't have the book in front of me right now, but these are the basic stats:
MESTIL'S ACID BREATH
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Range: Close (25 ft+5 ft/2 levels)
Area: Cone
Spell Resistance: Yes
Save: Fortitude half
Does 1d6 acid damage per caster level within the cone, to a maximum of 10d6.

My problem with this is that it's basically Cone of Cold masquerading as a Conjuration spell. I'd like to make it more "Conjuration-y." I'm thinking about these changes:

* Change it to a fixed 30 ft cone (this is more along the lines of a 3.5e change).
* No spell resistance.
* Give it a duration of 1 round. This won't do more damage, but the damage is considered "continuous" damage, so targets need to roll concentration if they want to cast spells or stuff.
* Drop damage to 1d8 per 2 levels.

So, what do people think?

 

[Nifft]

IMHO, to 3.5e-ize it, you should:

- Change to a fixed cone size (as you suggest above), say a flat 30 ft.
- Make it an Evocation
- Make the save a Reflex 1/2 (so Evasion applies)
- Leave duration & damage alone -- Instant, 1d6/level (max 10d6) -- so it's a variant Fireball, which everyone agrees is balanced for its level

Now, if you want to make a *different* spell (with continuous damage), I'd look at the various 3.5e fog / cloud spells -- particularly the Acid Fog spell.

-- N

 

[Scion]

I definately think that leaving it as close range is the way to go. It is a slight power bump in some ways, but in others cone is a much harder template to use effectively. Fireball can be very surgical, as can lightningbolt, but cones are a little harder..

Otherwise the spell seems all right.. If you are going for fort half though you might want to change it to d4's. perhaps make it have an extra secondary effect depending on if you save of not. nausea or some such for around or two, things like that.

 

[Staffan]

IMHO, to 3.5e-ize it, you should:

- Change to a fixed cone size (as you suggest above), say a flat 30 ft.
- Make it an Evocation
- Make the save a Reflex 1/2 (so Evasion applies)
- Leave duration & damage alone -- Instant, 1d6/level (max 10d6) -- so it's a variant Fireball, which everyone agrees is balanced for its level

Now, if you want to make a *different* spell (with continuous damage), I'd look at the various 3.5e fog / cloud spells -- particularly the Acid Fog spell.

The thing is that I don't want it to be a variant Fireball. I want to keep it Conjuration (or at least not Evocation), because I have a wizard in my campaign that can't cast Evocation spells, and I want him to have some offensive oomph (because he's being kind of useless - part of that is that the player isn't particularly wizard-minded, but part is that his spells kind of suck in combat). So, I want a spell that wizard can use, but it shouldn't be an Evocation spell in disguise.

The "continuous" damage wouldn't be all that continuous - you'd only get the damage once anyway, all it does is make it harder on spellcasters.

I definately think that leaving it as close range is the way to go. It is a slight power bump in some ways, but in others cone is a much harder template to use effectively. Fireball can be very surgical, as can lightningbolt, but cones are a little harder..

Otherwise the spell seems all right.. If you are going for fort half though you might want to change it to d4's. perhaps make it have an extra secondary effect depending on if you save of not. nausea or some such for around or two, things like that.

Well, in 3.5e all cones have a fixed range. 30 ft is on the low end of what used to be close (the minimum range for a 3rd-level spell would be 35 ft), so I think I'll use that.

As for damage, 1d8 per 2 levels is rather close to 1d4 per level. The reason I would go with d8s is that it's a lot easier to roll 4d8 than 8d4. The "secondary effect" is the semi-continuous damage - perhaps only have that on a failed save?

 

[Nifft]

The thing is that I don't want it to be a variant Fireball. I want to keep it Conjuration (or at least not Evocation), because I have a wizard in my campaign that can't cast Evocation spells, and I want him to have some offensive oomph (because he's being kind of useless - part of that is that the player isn't particularly wizard-minded, but part is that his spells kind of suck in combat). So, I want a spell that wizard can use, but it shouldn't be an Evocation spell in disguise.

The "continuous" damage wouldn't be all that continuous - you'd only get the damage once anyway, all it does is make it harder on spellcasters.

If you don't want to use Fireball, your only other choice is Acid Fog. That's a 6th level spell, and -- like most Conjurations -- it does very low damage for its level to make up for the fact that it does not allow SR.

That's a 6th level spell which lasts 1/level rounds, and deals only 2d6 damage per round. No way in Baator is your spell balanced against that!

The 3rd level spell to balance it against is Stinking Cloud. If your spell lasted one round, did 2d6 Acid damage, did NOT slow down those caught in it, and obscured vision, I'd call it balanced.

Penetrating SR is a big deal. Doing area damage without allowing Evasion is a big deal. Ice Storm is level 4, deals a flat 5d6 damage, it's continuous for 1 full round, and does allow SR -- the big deal there is no save. You shouldn't let a 3rd level spell out damage a similar 4th level spell.

You simply can't allow a spell that deals as much damage as an Evocation without any of the standard Evocation drawbacks. Your Wizard decided he didn't need Evocations, fine -- don't let him sneak them in the back door.

Wizards who don't cast Evocations should be casting Transmutation, Enchantment and Necromancy -- Buffs and Anti-Buffs. He can be quite effective without doing direct damage, I'm certain!

-- N

 

[Scion]

with a fixed range and a 1 round duration the spell is able to be persistantified. But then I still play 3.0 for the most part so all of my considerations come from that angle.

From either edition fireball and cone of cold are effectively the same spell, I have never understood why they are different levels. But I suppose that is a topic for anther thread.

Imnsho, 8d4 is very superior to 4d8. Same max values, but 8d4 is much more consistant. Plus I hate rolling minimum on spells and it happens all too often.

The secondary effect was to make up for it doing d4's. If you are making it d8's then it'll have to max out at 5 dice, with d4's you can max out at 10.


But, you could have the spell deal d8/2 levels (up to a max of 5d8) have a reflex and a fort save. The reflex save cuts the damage in half and the fort save determines whether or not the creature takes half of the damage again next round.

First round 5d8, reflex save for half, fortitude save to see if it effects you next round for a further half damage.

or 10d4 fort save for half and automatically taking half again the next round (20 the first round save for 10, 10 the next round unless saved the last round in that case take 5 more). This is more powerful in some ways, maybe too much so for a 3rd level spell but it is hard to say. But this one would be more along the lines of a conjuration spell in my estimation.

Make sure that there is a way to keep from taking the extra damage, but dont make it too hard.. any liquid poored over the target type of thing.. gives a good use for create water.

 

[the Jester]

I think that if you want it to be Conjuration (no SR, etc.) then make it a flat 3d8 damage, 30' cone, duration 1 round.

The only real worry is that it can be extended to 6d8 damage (3d8/rd for 2 rounds) or made persistent. To counter this, I'd make the save Fort negates.

As several others have said, Conjurations have significant advantages over Evocations- between no SR check and all that. Evocation's significant advantage is that it deals more damage. 3d8 is roughly equivalent to 4d6; I think that's fair, especially with the continuous damage for a round.

 

[Staffan]

If you don't want to use Fireball, your only other choice is Acid Fog. That's a 6th level spell, and -- like most Conjurations -- it does very low damage for its level to make up for the fact that it does not allow SR.

That's a 6th level spell which lasts 1/level rounds, and deals only 2d6 damage per round. No way in Baator is your spell balanced against that!

Total of 2d6 per level (no cap) versus a total of half a d8 per level (max 5d8)? A 12th level wizard casting acid fog would inflict a total of 24d6, while he'd only do 5d8 with acid breath.

Penetrating SR is a big deal. Doing area damage without allowing Evasion is a big deal. Ice Storm is level 4, deals a flat 5d6 damage, it's continuous for 1 full round, and does allow SR -- the big deal there is no save. You shouldn't let a 3rd level spell out damage a similar 4th level spell.

Personally, I think Ice Storm is terribly underpowered. But you have a point about SR - perhaps I'll rationalize it and say that the acid guck is magical (which is why it vanishes after a round), so SR does help.

Also, some classes have a special ability called Mettle, which works like Evasion but for Fort/Will saves instead (I think it first showed up as an ability for the Sohei in OA).

You simply can't allow a spell that deals as much damage as an Evocation without any of the standard Evocation drawbacks.

1d8 per two levels is significantly less than 1d6/level. The party is currently at 6th level, so he'll be doing an average of 14 points compared to the other wizard's 21 - a full third less. This disparity will grow as they increase in level, and will be at its worst at 9th level (4d8/18 points vs. 9d6/32 points).

 

[Nifft]

Damage in lower 'doses' is less powerful than damage in higher 'doses', because many 3.5e critters have Energy Resistance 5 or 10. So, Scorching Ray is *NOT* balanced as a 12d6 spell, it's balanced as a 4d6 (x3) spell.

Likewise, Acid Fog is balanced *NOT* as a 24d6 spell, it's balanced as a 2d6 (x12) spell... unlikely to hurt a whole host of critters who would be slain by an actual 24d6 spell.

For a 3rd level Conjuration spell, I'd say that the spell is balanced at 4d6 Acid, 30 ft. cone, 1 round duration, no save or SR.

Compared to Scorching Ray, it deals the same damge to more targets, and doesn't allow SR. Unlike SRay, it can't be concentrated on a single target.

Compared to Fireball, it does not allow a save or SR, and it isn't an Evocation.

Compared to Acid Arrow, it affects multiple targets, but deals marginally less damage over the duration of a typical single fight.

Compared to Ice Storm, it doesn't allow SR, and it doesn't deal physical damage -- only energy.

I don't think that 5d8 is balanced, considering that's average damage of 22.5 -- equal to a 6th or 7th level Fireball. He's supposed to be losing something by foreswearing Evocations, right?

-- N