Metamagic and sorcerors -- and haste!

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks!

You answered all of your own questions. You are discouraging appropriate forum behavior by refusing to practice it with me (which you have sense clarified by answering my question), when it is quite obvious that I am attempting to practice it with you, by holding a civic conversation with you.

If you simply use my past behavior as an excuse to continue to participate in inappropriate behavior, when it is quite obvious I am attempting to be civil with you, then you are in fact discouraging civility for the sake of...well, I can't really think of a better word than..."revenge", or maybe "justice", or to "get even".

Like I said, it works both ways. Treat others as you would have them treat you. I've been polite with you thus far. Not too shabby.

Your right, it does work both ways. You have not been polite to me "thus far", you have only been polite to me very recently. And in return I have made an effort to be civil, but don't think that means I won't question your actions when I think they go over the line. I'm not a forum watchdog, but I'm not shy about commenting when something catches my eye.

You keep saying that you "treat others as you would have them treat you", but then you complain when you actually are treated as you have treated them.


What you actually seem to want is for others to treat you only as you have treated them recently, not as you have been treating them in the past. Your past behavior should have no present day reprecussions. Is that correct?

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks!

Your right, it does work both ways. You have not been polite to me "thus far",

I was speaking in context of this very conversation. I have been civil during this conversation. I was not speaking about past conversations/discussions/altercations I have had with you.

you have only been polite to me very recently.

That's what I was referring to, and thank you for taking notice.

And in return I have made an effort to be civil

You are now (and I sincerely appreciate it), but you initially appeared to charge into this thread with teeth beared, seemingly "going after me" on instinct because of my past behavior, which is understandable, but not necessarily acceptable, seeing as how I did not instigate this current debacle with Iku Rex.

My goal was to illustrate to you that I can be, and am being, civil. Thus, "teeth bearing" is not necessary.

but don't think that means I won't question your actions when I think they go over the line. I'm not a forum watchdog, but I'm not shy about commenting when something catches my eye.

If that's what you want to do, that's fine with me. I don't have a problem with that. Heck, on occassion, even I have questioned the actions of some posters here when the flames got too hot. I only ask that you be fairminded when you go about doing this, and sincerely make the effort to determine for yourself if I was even the instigator. There are two parts to a flame war: The poster that instigated it, and the poster that keeps it going. I have done neither in this thread.

You keep saying that you "treat others as you would have them treat you", but then you complain when you actually are treated as you have treated them.

Notice, however, that the statement you quote (mine) is in the present tense, while the statement you made is in the past tense. I am trying to be civil now. I am actually making the effort now. I intend to continue making that effort.

Again, poor behavior on your part, or anybody elses, because of my past behavior, is no excuse. No doubt, you would like me to be civil. No doubt, you would like me to behave appropriately. By choosing not to acknowledge the fact that I am indeed making that effort, you are effectively discouraging anyone to make said effort, especially me. For one to discourage civility makes them no better than the individual they claim to be uncivilized.

I'm not saying that you are uncivilized at all. I just ask that you acknowledge the effort I am making. If you don't, then what's the point of making it?

What you actually seem to want is for others to treat you only as you have treated them recently, not as you have been treating them in the past.

Not at all. I am asking others to practice what they have been preaching, which is proper behavior. If you don't practice it, you can't preach it. Like I said, there have been times when I have tried to get someone to chill out before a flame-war started in a thread that I wasn't even involved in. But, how can I expect that person to take my effort to calm a situation seriously when I don't practice what I preach? I can't.

Your past behavior should have no present day reprecussions. Is that correct?

No. Again, I am asking that you acknowledge the effort I am making. If you don't, you are no better than I was, and you don't encourage my behavior to change.

If I'm the only one that makes this effort, it won't work.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks!

I was speaking in context of this very conversation. I have been civil during this conversation. I was not speaking about past conversations/discussions/altercations I have had with you.

I, however, am speaking in of the entire history of my experience with you. One day of civility is a start, but hardly negates several months of poor behavior.

If you want a fresh start, just say so. Until you request that, don't expect me to forget everything that has happened.

That's what I was referring to, and thank you for taking notice.

I noticed, but the behavior of yours I commented on was not entirely civil. That is why I commented on it.

You are now (and I sincerely appreciate it), but you initially appeared to charge into this thread with teeth beared, seemingly "going after me" on instinct because of my past behavior, which is understandable, but not necessarily acceptable, seeing as how I did not instigate this current debacle with Iku Rex.

Exactly how was I "charging in with teeth bared" when I merely suggested that you to listen to your own advice? I would hardly call that an uncivil response to your comments.

My goal was to illustrate to you that I can be, and am being, civil. Thus, "teeth bearing" is not necessary.

And indeed, there was none.

I think perhaps you are being oversensitive to comments made towards you.

If that's what you want to do, that's fine with me. I don't have a problem with that. Heck, on occassion, even I have questioned the actions of some posters here when the flames got too hot. I only ask that you be fairminded when you go about doing this, and sincerely make the effort to determine for yourself if I was even the instigator. There are two parts to a flame war: The poster that instigated it, and the poster that keeps it going. I have done neither in this thread.

Is there a flame war here?

Notice, however, that the statement you quote (mine) is in the present tense, while the statement you made is in the past tense. I am trying to be civil now. I am actually making the effort now. I intend to continue making that effort.

I applaud your effort, but it is currently somewhat lacking. That is what caused my initial comment on this thread.

Again, poor behavior on your part, or anybody elses, because of my past behavior, is no excuse. No doubt, you would like me to be civil. No doubt, you would like me to behave appropriately. By choosing not to acknowledge the fact that I am indeed making that effort, you are effectively discouraging anyone to make said effort, especially me. For one to discourage civility makes them no better than the individual they claim to be uncivilized.

Which poor behavior on my part are you referring to, exactly?

The comments in questioin that that you made were:

Then refute my first post in this thread. It's either that, or you can stop running your mouth and try to remain civil. Your choice.

*******************
Oh really? How embarrasing for you to make such an assumption.


****************
Semantics. You're desparately digging for an argument here.

That hardly sounded civil to me, but the only comment I made was suggest that you take your own advice. Everthing else came after that.

I'm not saying that you are uncivilized at all. I just ask that you acknowledge the effort I am making. If you don't, then what's the point of making it?

Why do you keep trying make me responsible for your behavior?

Not at all. I am asking others to practice what they have been preaching, which is proper behavior.

I generally do try to. However, when I see you verbally assaulting someone who did not attack you (a single wisecrack is not an attack), then I will comment on it. In this case I just made a simple suggestion, because while I thought your comments were unwarranted, I didn't think they were anything to get worked up about.

You were the one who wanted to turn it into a full blown etiquette debate, and kept trying your hardest to turn it around on me. (Not that I minded. It's a slow day at work, and playing the semantics game gave me something to do.)

If you don't practice it, you can't preach it. Like I said, there have been times when I have tried to get someone to chill out before a flame-war started in a thread that I wasn't even involved in. But, how can I expect that person to take my effort to calm a situation seriously when I don't practice what I preach? I can't.

Words to live by.

By the way, when I have I ever told you how to behave in this forum?

Think about that.

No. Again, I am asking that you acknowledge the effort I am making.

[

I do acknowledged it and applaud your effort. However, I'm not sure why you think this should immediately erase the effects of the reputation your past actions have given you.

Reputations occur because of your actions, and they rarely change overnight. I developed a reputation that I never asked for because of my behavior on these boards over the course of several months. I didn't really want it, but I have accepted it and deal with the positive and negative effects caused by it.

Now you are dealing a similar situation, except you want to change your reputation. The only thing that will change it is action and effort on your part. If you act like you deserve the reputation you want, eventually you will have it.

If you don't, you are no better than I was, and you don't encourage my behavior to change.

Why don't you take responsibility for your own behavior, instead of trying to imply that it's going to be my responsibility if you lose it again?

Your not my child, and I'm not responsible for how you behave. I'll let you know when I disagree with how you are behaving, but I'm not going to tell you how you should behave. That's for you to decide. (Just be prepared to accept the consequences of your behavior.)

I've lost my temper on the boards before, and each time it was my fault for allowing myself to post angry. It's not the fault of the people who provoked me, because they are only responsible for their own actions, and I am only responsible for my actions (or re-actions as the case may be).

If you want "help", just say so. Say the word, and I will avoid making statements that I think might antagonize you.

But don't try emotional blackmail, because it doesn't work on me.

If I'm the only one that makes this effort, it won't work.

If you honestly make the effort, then it won't be an effort for other people to be civil to you.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks!

By the way, when I have I ever told you how to behave in this forum?

Never, and I never said you did.

I do acknowledged it and applaud your effort. However, I'm not sure why you think this should immediately erase the effects of the reputation your past actions have given you.

I don't think it should immediately erase the effects of my reputation. By the same token, civility deserves civility. If one does not return civility, it need not be offered in the first place. Think about that.

Now you are dealing a similar situation, except you want to change your reputation.

Not exactly. If I am expected to be civil, I expect the same in return. Simple as that.

The only thing that will change it is action and effort on your part.

Which is what I'm doing right now. I'm making the effort.

If you act like you deserve the reputation you want, eventually you will have it.

It's not about the reputation. It's about civility. Again, why should I be civil if civility is not returned in kind? Expecting someone to change, and not changing yourself, is like the pot calling the kettle black.

Why don't you take responsibility for your own behavior, instead of trying to imply that it's going to be my responsibility if you lose it again?

Again, if you want to see a change in behavior, then you must change your behavior as well. You can't logically ask that of someone else while not making your own effort.

Your not my child, and I'm not responsible for how you behave.

I never said you were, and I find this comment rather condescending. Up to this point, this discussion has been very civil, but it is now bordering on something else.

I'll let you know when I disagree with how you are behaving, but I'm not going to tell you how you should behave.

See previous answer.

I'm not going to tell you how you should behave.

That's good, because I didn't ask that of you. It's rather disappointing that you assume I am not capable of deciding for myself what is or is not appropriate behavior. Again, rather condescending.

(Just be prepared to accept the consequences of your behavior.)

I accept the consequences of my behavior only when I am at fault. In this particular case, I don't see at all how I'm at fault. If you think I am, then we have a difference of opinion.

I've lost my temper on the boards before, and each time it was my fault for allowing myself to post angry. It's not the fault of the people who provoked me, because they are only responsible for their own actions, and I am only responsible for my actions (or re-actions as the case may be).

I never said it was the fault of the provoker. What I did say, however, is that behaving in a simliarly inappropriate manner only proves that said person is just as bad as the one they claim to be uncivil, thus they don't practice what they preach.

If you want "help", just say so.

I'm not asking for help. That would imply that I am not capable of deciding upon my own behavior. What I am asking, however, is that you, and anyone else, take your/their own advice. If you expect me to behave, then I expect you to behave as well. Simple as that really. To refuse to behave while expecting me to do so is completely illogical and impractical.

Say the word, and I will avoid making statements that I think might antagonize you.

Word. (in regards to you avoiding making statements that might antagonize me, not in regards to a request for help)

But don't try emotional blackmail, because it doesn't work on me.

Emotional blackmail? I am merely requesting that you and others not partake in hypocrisy by requesting that I behave while you and others do not.

If you honestly make the effort, then it won't be an effort for other people to be civil to you.

But in fact, it would indeed require the effort on other people's part. Pot calling the kettle black. Practice what you preach. Pure logic.

I'm still being civil about this, yet you have taken on a rather condescending tone. You ask me not to see you as a "father", and I don't, yet you speak to me as if you are speaking to a child, which is definately not an effective method of encouraging civil behavior when you are not being civil yourself. I think I have demonstrated quite well to you that I can be civil by doing so throughout this entire dialogue. It only makes sense for you to do the same if you expect that of me. If not, well, we've run into that "practice what you preach" thing.

 

[the Jester]

Surreal indeed...

I have to jump in here- this is fun reading, guys, but geez!

Okay, kreynolds, I like you, you're generally funny. In the past you've tended to bite at people rather easily, not always intentionally but sometimes posting things without thinking about your tone adequately. I have noticed that you've been trying to be more civil in general lately and I applaud it, but I have to agree that a few of your comments came off as condescending earlier in the thread.

Caliban, I like you too, but you jump at the bait very easily. You usually have some of the better thought out opinions on rules questions on these boards and I respect that. But I also agree with kreynolds; if one person is trying to play nice, and all the folks he used to be a jerk to don't respond in kind, it becomes frustrating and he becomes more likely to throw up his hands and give up on the new leaf of goodness that he's trying to turn over.

Can't you guys just say, "Okay, we're both trying to be nice here, and we'll keep doing so, and let's shake hands and have a beer and go home?"

Good gaming to you both, and no offense to either of you. I'm proud of the fact that (unless it happened after I stopped following the thread) I've NEVER been in a flame war on these boards; sometimes it just takes a little extra effort to type the words "No offense intended, of course" at the end of your post (hey, check out the start of this paragraph). And it doesn't count if it's part of your sig cause you don't have to actually think to put it there in an individual instance.

Have fun with this thread.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks!

Never, and I never said you did.

Actually, you say exactly that several times in this very post.

I don't think it should immediately erase the effects of my reputation. By the same token, civility deserves civility. If one does not return civility, it need not be offered in the first place. Think about that.

I have. It doesn't make any sense to me.

You seem to be saying that you accept that there are consequences of your past behavior, but if anyone is actually uncivil to you as a consequence of your past behavior, then you do not need to be civil to them. Thus justifying your reputation, and continuing the cycle.

And if you aren't going to offer civility in the first place, then how do you know I'm not going to return it? Wouldn't you have to actually be civil in order to find it if it's going to be returned? That satement just doesn't make any sense to me.

Not exactly. If I am expected to be civil, I expect the same in return. Simple as that.

As I said, I won't tell you how to behave. I don't expect you to be civil. However, if you are civil, then I will try to be civil in return. If you are not civil, then I may choose not to be civil. Right now you are dealing with the consequences of your actions. (But I'm being civil about it).

Which is what I'm doing right now. I'm making the effort.

And you seem to get upset when people don't immediately respond to that and forget about everything that has happened. Sometimes it takes time.

It's not about the reputation. It's about civility. Again, why should I be civil if civility is not returned in kind? Expecting someone to change, and not changing yourself, is like the pot calling the kettle black.

I've never asked you to change. I don't expect you to change. If you do change, I will be impressed and will adjust accordingly. But you haven't convinced me that you have actually changed yet. You may just be on your best behavior right now to keep from being banned. You may have had a real change of heart. Time will tell.

Again, if you want to see a change in behavior, then you must change your behavior as well. You can't logically ask that of someone else while not making your own effort.

Once again, I have not asked you to change your behavior. I can handle you with or without your attitude. It's more pleasant without, but I'm not going to tell you how to behave. It's not my place. The forum moderators may feel otherwise, of course.

I never said you were, and I find this comment rather condescending. Up to this point, this discussion has been very civil, but it is now bordering on something else.

And I think you are looking for something to take offense at, when none was intended.

You keep telling me that I need to "encourage civil behavior" in you. I don't know about you, but where I come from, that is considered to be a parental (or similar authority figure) responsibility.

See previous answer.

Ditto.

That's good, because I didn't ask that of you.

It's rather disappointing that you assume I am not capable of deciding for myself what is or is not appropriate behavior. Again, rather condescending.

See previous answer.

I accept the consequences of my behavior only when I am at fault. In this particular case, I don't see at all how I'm at fault. If you think I am, then we have a difference of opinion.

You don't want to accept that consequences of your past behavior. Namely, that people won't immediately think kreynolds is a nice guy because he's tries to be polite for a day or two.

If it's a real change, then bravo. If it isn't, well I won't be suprised.

I never said it was the fault of the provoker. What I did say, however, is that behaving in a simliarly inappropriate manner only proves that said person is just as bad as the one they claim to be uncivil, thus they don't practice what they preach.

Ah, the "If I'm bad, then anyone who points it out must be equally bad" arguement. I'm afraid that doesn't work in this instance, since I have been nothing but civil to you in this thread, despite your attempts to provoke.

I'm not asking for help. That would imply that I am not capable of deciding upon my own behavior.

Which would be why I put the word "help" in quotes. Or did you miss that?

What I am asking, however, is that you, and anyone else, take your/their own advice. If you expect me to behave, then I expect you to behave as well. Simple as that really. To refuse to behave while expecting me to do so is completely illogical and impractical.

Actually, I don't expect you to behave. I'm not going to tell you how to behave. (I though you had agreed on this point at the beginning of your post, but you seem to have forgotten it.)

Also, where have I been less than civil in this thread, or refused to behave? You keep mentioning that, yet you don't seem to have anything to actually base it on.

Word. (in regards to you avoiding making statements that might antagonize me, not in regards to a request for help)

So are you requesting that I avoid making statements that might antagonize you? Will you do the same? The reason I ask this is because you have not done so in the remainder of your post.

Treat me with respect and I will treat you with respect. I gave you respect when you first joined this board, and you cast it aside because you said that you didn't care what I or anyone else thought of you. Now it seems that you do care, at least a little.

Respecting each other is a large part of being civil to each other.

Emotional blackmail? I am merely requesting that you and others not partake in hypocrisy by requesting that I behave while you and others do not.

Since I have never requested that you behave in a particular manner, I don't see this "hypocrisy" that you are referring to. This seems like a rather uncivil accusation.

And no others have been involved in this particular converstation, so I'm not exactly who you are accusing here.

I have merely been pointing out that you have been taking offense when others treat you exactly as you have treated them. That is a consequence of your past actions, which you are now having to deal with.

But in fact, it would indeed require the effort on other people's part. Pot calling the kettle black. Practice what you preach. Pure logic.

I thought you said that you didn't need anyones help to decide your own behavior? Which is it?

I'm still being civil about this, yet you have taken on a rather condescending tone.

I'm sorry that you choose to see it that way.

You ask me not to see you as a "father", and I don't, yet you speak to me as if you are speaking to a child, which is definately not an effective method of encouraging civil behavior when you are not being civil yourself.

Since we have established that I'm not your father (and that you are not Luke), why is it up to me to "encourage civil behavior" in you? Why wouldn't it be the other way around at this point?

That is the part I don't understand here.

You keep saying that you decide your own behavior, but then you also say it's up to other people to encourage you to be civil.

When are you going to encourage other people to be civil, instead of demanding that they be civil to you?

You just seem to be picking an odd way of going about this. *shrug*

I think I have demonstrated quite well to you that I can be civil by doing so throughout this entire dialogue. It only makes sense for you to do the same if you expect that of me. If not, well, we've run into that "practice what you preach" thing.

When have I not been civil in this conversation? (And what exactly do you think I have been "preaching"?)

 

[Dinkeldog]

Let me do a quick summary:

kreynolds is attempting to change his reputation. That's cool, I appreciate the effort, and it has been noticed. But man, you gotta expect that people will forget once in a while. Wounds take some time to heal. Keep it up, and people will stop jumping at you. Until then, take a bit of (more-or-less) constructive criticism as an opportunity for growth. Yes, I know it sucks. It'll get better. I promise.

caliban, take a deep breath, and let it go. One post would have been fine.

I think this conversation has reached its logical conclusion. If anyone has further questions on spontaneous casting with metamagic feats, please open a new thread.