Metamagic Feats

[the Jester]

Compare (assumes specialist wizards, 17th level, int 26 with items, with four rounds to inflict damage, not considering tactics or anything; spells are 5 7 7 7 7 6 6 5 4 2):

[color=AA2244]Maxxor (uses your proposal)-
two quickened empowered maximized meteor swarms
two quickened empowered maximized horrid wiltings
two empowered maximized horrid wiltings
one empowered maximized delayed blast fireball
three delayed blast fireball
[/color][color=44AA22]
Banner (uses spells w/o metamagic)-
two meteor swarms
two horrid wiltings
[/color][color=2244AA]
Veinter (uses spells w/PHB metamagic rules)
two maximized disintegrates
two horrid wiltings
two quickened empowered searing lights
two quickened fireballs[/color]

I think the standard system winds out over a non-metamagicked type, though I've not done the math; and I'm positive that Maxxor is insanely powerful.

I agree that 2nd & 4th level spells are shy on good offense, though for 2nd level spells, that's no longer the case imo since 3.5 brought in scorching ray. I have a bunch of 'interesting' damaging custom 4th level spells imc (acid web, bonebreak, etc.)

 

[the Jester]

Compare (assumes specialist wizards, 17th level, int 26 with items, with four rounds to inflict damage, not considering tactics or anything; spells are 5 7 7 7 7 6 6 5 4 2):

[color=AA2244]Maxxor (uses your proposal)-
two quickened empowered maximized meteor swarms
two quickened empowered maximized horrid wiltings
two empowered maximized horrid wiltings
one empowered maximized delayed blast fireball
three delayed blast fireball
[/color][color=44AA22]
Banner (uses spells w/o metamagic)-
two meteor swarms
two horrid wiltings
[/color][color=2244AA]
Veinter (uses spells w/PHB metamagic rules)
two maximized disintegrates
two horrid wiltings
two quickened empowered searing lights
two quickened fireballs[/color]

I think the standard system winds out over a non-metamagicked type, though I've not done the math; and I'm positive that Maxxor is insanely powerful.

I agree that 2nd & 4th level spells are shy on good offense, though for 2nd level spells, that's no longer the case imo since 3.5 brought in scorching ray. I have a bunch of 'interesting' damaging custom 4th level spells imc (acid web, bonebreak, etc.)

Edit: sorry if this post comes across as brusque, but I wrote a much longer and more in-depth post on the subject and accidentally deleted it before I could post it first, so this is a second- and quick- draft.

 

[SteelDraco]

Chill, man. Nobody's saying you're a bad DM or anything. You had a problem, and people are offering observations and suggestions based on the problem you outlined. You didn't say "I think the metamagic system is basically flawed, what do you guys think about this alternate method?" You said that a specific problem was occurring regularly, and you were thinking about changing the rules as a result of that problem. People were just offering thoughts on the problem you were having.

Metamagic is a wonky system, and one of the things you see talked about in the House Rules forum the most. I still haven't found a system that I think works particularly well while retaining the Vancian spell slots. Metamagic's simple in a spell point system, but there just isn't enough different things you can do with spell slots to make it work well. It's rarely worthwhile to use a slot two or three levels higher for a metamagicked spell, since there will almost always be better choices at that level. Only when an effect isn't duplicated by higher level spell is it really useful to use metamagic, which is why Magic Missile gets used so often - it's unavoidable, auto-hitting force damage, which is probably the best damage type in the game.

Upon reflection, your idea has a problem in that it doesn't make any distinction based on the level of the spell that's being modified. An Empowered Magic Missile and an Empowered Meteor Swarm both just use up a spell slot of their normal level and a 2nd level slot, but the Empowered Meteor Swarm gets a whole heck of a lot more mileage out of that 2nd level slot.

You might try writing up a few spell lists with your system, and comparing them to a standard spellcaster.

 

[SteelDraco]

Compare (assumes specialist wizards, 17th level, int 26 with items, with four rounds to inflict damage, not considering tactics or anything; spells are 5 7 7 7 7 6 6 5 4 2):

[color=AA2244]Maxxor (uses your proposal)-
two quickened empowered maximized meteor swarms
two quickened empowered maximized horrid wiltings
two empowered maximized horrid wiltings
one empowered maximized delayed blast fireball
three delayed blast fireball
[/color]

This would use up... let's see here.
Five 2nd level slots (Five Empowers)
Seven 3rd level slots (Seven Maximizes)
Four 4th level slots (Four Quickeneds)
Four 7th level slots (Four Delayed Blast Fireballs)
Four 8th level slots (Four Horrid Wiltings)
Two 9th level slots (Two Meteor Swarms)

Also, you've got six non-Quickened spells going off in four rounds.

[color=2244AA]
Veinter (uses spells w/PHB metamagic rules)
two maximized disintegrates
two horrid wiltings
two quickened empowered searing lights
two quickened fireballs[/color]

I think the standard system winds out over a non-metamagicked type, though I've not done the math; and I'm positive that Maxxor is insanely powerful.

That uses...
Four 9th level slots (Disintegrate (6) + Maximize (+3) x 2, Searing Light (3) + Empower (+2) + Quicken (+4) x 2)
Two 8th level slots (Horrid Wilting x 2)
Two 7th level slots (Fireball (3) + Quicken (+4)

Yes, it's very powerful, but it also uses a whole heck of a lot more spell slots than the PHB metamagic system. In those four rounds, the wizard casts pretty much his whole repertoire or spells for the day. That's a pretty decent balancing mechanic.

You're kind of doing an apples to oranges thing here, since you switch from area effect spells to the single-target zap spells.

I agree that 2nd & 4th level spells are shy on good offense, though for 2nd level spells, that's no longer the case imo since 3.5 brought in scorching ray. I have a bunch of 'interesting' damaging custom 4th level spells imc (acid web, bonebreak, etc.)

I'd tend to agree, that the real problem here is that 2nd and 4th level don't have that much for blasty mages. There's a lot of stuff that a SMART mage would want at those levels, but if you're just looking to kill stuff as fast as possible, they're not exciting levels.

 

[Stalker0]

I'd tend to agree, that the real problem here is that 2nd and 4th level don't have that much for blasty mages. There's a lot of stuff that a SMART mage would want at those levels, but if you're just looking to kill stuff as fast as possible, they're not exciting levels.

Every wizard type has their gaps in the spell list, and for many specialties its a lot worse (just take a quick peek at the number of evocation spells at some levels compared to other schools

If the whole memorizing blasty spells if really a problem, perhaps try some encounters where utility spells would work best. If the wizard starts to see utility spells are good to prepare, he'll start making a mixture of both.,

 

[the Jester]

Being able to unload tons of spell levels worth of spells in a round is an incredible powerup for wizards. That's what makes quickened spells so darn good.

As to the 'apples and oranges,' I was simply trying to pick out damage spells only.

You're right about my giving the one guy six rounds' worth of spells- my initial (sadly deleted) analysis went for six rounds instead of four, but when I had to rewrite it all I cut it short except for one guy, my bad.

Anyway, I don't think the fact that you blow some extra slots to maximize, empower and quicken a meteor swarm is adequate to balance it out. We're talking about something that would require an 18th-level slot here! That requires 9 epic feats dedicated to Improved Spell Capacity alone under the standard system.

 

[LightPhoenix]

Whoops, didn't check in on this thread.

StAlda, my apologies if I offended. As SteelDraco suggested, I (among others) simply misinterpreted your post.

The ideas I posted were completely off the top of my head, not playtested at all. I didn't expect them to be balanced in any way, shape, or form - only as a possible alternate line of thinking in the approach that you've taken the first steps in. Though the example you posts was incorrect with what I posted - you would spend two 8th level slots to cast a Silent 8th spell. At high levels you're almost always better off casting more spells than more powerful ones... especially because the metamagic feats you can apply (disregarding Epic rules for the moment) are weak - I would never cast a Silent 8th level spell period.

I'm of the presonal opinion the problem with metamagic lies with the Vancian system itself, in that it's exponential rather than linear. Which is why I for one am looking forward to the spell point system in UA. I think the problems with metamagic might be less severe in that system too.

 

[Spatzimaus]

IMO, the current, "exponential" level system is a little too prohibitive. A 9th-level spell can't be metamagicked at all unless you go Epic, and the fact that Wizards have to decide beforehand which metamagics to apply prevents them from being used well. Note I said "a little"; while Quicken seems excessive at +4, I still see people use Quickened Magic Missiles and such all the time, because it can still be worth it.

But, at the other extreme, I think the system you propose is way too generous. If I'm an Epic-level caster with a Ring of Wizardry II, I could fill all my 2nd-level spell slots up with Empower Spell. Like others have said, the power increase in a 9th-level spell due to this second-level psuedospell is huge. More importantly, even if I was the "nuke 'em til they glow then shoot 'em in the dark" type of blaster mage, I wouldn't have been using those 2nd-level slots for attack spells anyway. The Save DCs would be terrible. So, requiring a level X slot becomes meaningless once you get to higher levels.

 

[StAlda]

Here's another Question...

Do you think MAXIMIZE is equivalent to QUICKEN when it comes to how much power it gives the spellcaster?

 

[StAlda]

Here's another Question...

Do you think MAXIMIZE is equivalent to QUICKEN when it comes to how much power it gives the spellcaster?

or do you think quicken costs too much, should it be +3 levels ?