Methods of Execution/Criminal Punishment

[Umbran]

I based this on an actual medieval legend of Brittany in France.

I know. You said so in the first post. And as a legend, it is cool. As something the players have to interact with, you have to consider it with whatever level of logic the players are apt to bring to bear on it. Sometimes, you can run a mythic game where players really don't consider if something makes sense. Other times, the players will look at it funny.

I decided to make it a tradition instead of hust the corruption of one aristocrat.

Thing is, when it is one person, you can see her making the choice, for her religion. Especially when she is *choosing* her victims. When you make it a tradition, now all women in that position are doing it, whether they like it or not. No choice. Women having sex without choice - is that what you want in your game, as part of the *justice* system?

Think a moment about the types of people who are apt to be executed. They are not nice. Possibly diseased, violent, cruel people. Would *you* be okay with being forced to sleep with them? Even if it was "tradition"? Probably not. Not that the person being ugly, diseased and such is really required for forced sex to be wrong, but I think the image should help make the point.

And what about female criminals? Do they get the son of the duke? Do women never commit crimes? Or, is your setup just ignoring half the population?

 

[Umbran]

The child would not exactly be a legitimate heir...

Traditionally in fiction, when one does not exactly have a legitimate heir, one often goes for whatever can be found. The war over illegitimate heirs is a well-established trope.

 

[Janx]

I know. You said so in the first post. And as a legend, it is cool. As something the players have to interact with, you have to consider it with whatever level of logic the players are apt to bring to bear on it. Sometimes, you can run a mythic game where players really don't consider if something makes sense. Other times, the players will look at it funny.



Thing is, when it is one person, you can see her making the choice, for her religion. Especially when she is *choosing* her victims. When you make it a tradition, now all women in that position are doing it, whether they like it or not.

Think a moment about the types of people who are apt to be executed. They are not nice. Possibly diseased, violent, cruel people. Would *you* be okay with being forced to sleep with them? Even if it was "tradition"? Probably not.

And what about female criminals? Do they get the son of the duke? Do women never commit crimes? Or, is your setup just ignoring half the population?

I agree. The original legend is interesting, but it was the Woman running the business.

This new idea is Rape. Somebody's going to be offended by how frankly I talk about this, and THAT is the very point of why you should not include it in the game.

The Duke is not likely to relish the thought of criminals (aka people he hates) raping his daughter. That's adding double insult to injury because he's rewarding the criminal and punishing himself/his daughter. If I want a man dead, I kill him. No drink, no food, no happy ending.

In traditional old-timey times, the Duke's Daughter is an asset to be married off to an ally. Old timey traditions are about first dibs and getting criminal sauce on her ain't kosher.

 

[Tortoise]

The child would not exactly be a legitimate heir, and would most likely be at best one of several claimants to the throne, including likely several other children abandoned around the same time.

Sounds to me as if the church has figured out a nice way to quietly maintain some influence in the courts of nobles.

 

[amerigoV]

I ran a two session Convention Game where the PCs first had to capture a war criminal from the Greyhawk Wars (they got the pleasure since they were all impacted by him in some way) and then after the trial, escort him to his punishment.

The punishment ? Well, he was so vile they feared executing him would just mean some evil god or demon would snatch up his soul, or some powerful minion would just resurrect him. To prevent such things, the PCs were charged with dragging the guy through the Tomb of Horrors and ensure his soul got sucked by the DemiLich.

(much hilarity ensued, to be sure!)

 

[prosfilaes]

Traditionally in fiction, when one does not exactly have a legitimate heir, one often goes for whatever can be found. The war over illegitimate heirs is a well-established trope.

Yes. However, having an illegitimate heir hidden in the church might actually reduce the problem; at least now we're arguing over church orphans, rather then whatever puppets anyone trying to seize power can grab and turn into an "illegitimate heir".

 

[Samloyal23]

Depending upon the values of your society it may be considered rape. Remember the story of Lot's daughters? If it is sufficiently normalized the daughters will likely have no obejection and just see it as part of their duty. This is a corrupt and licentious court. Whichever girl feels like doing it just volunteers for the task. That said, I cannot see any of the ladies at court being forced per se, if they strongly object the temporary "prince" will have a whore provided instead. Remember though, this is not the type of society we have today.

 

[Umbran]

Depending upon the values of your society it may be considered rape. Remember the story of Lot's daughters?

Yes. I know the story wasn't *written* by Lot's daughters, so we don't have their opinions on the matter.

If it is sufficiently normalized the daughters will likely have no obejection and just see it as part of their duty.

Bullpucky*. If nothing else, you are confusing, "concede to it as duty, with no other choice available" and "have no objection". These are in no way synonymous. In fact, history and fiction are *full* of stories where people have a duty that is at odds with their personal desires - it is a primary source of drama.

In general, what you're putting forth is the story folks would like to tell, to make them feel better about how badly people have been treated in the past (and, in some cases, to justify treating people badly today). Rape does not, psychologically, cease to be rape because a culture institutionalizes it. Making it a "duty" does not make it any less a violation.

This is a corrupt and licentious court. Whichever girl feels like doing it just volunteers for the task.

Well, that's not what was in the OP. Except in the case where they know the offender, I don't see why any would volunteer - see above Janx's point about how marriage is was frequently used to bind royal houses together.



*Edit: I apologize for my dismissive language, but it is how I feel about trying to cloak misogyny in "cultural mores"

 

[Janx]

Here's a simple test:

Seriously ask your wife or girlfriend, if she'd mind being used as a Last Boinker for horrendous criminals as you'd like to offer them a night of solace before they get executed.

Go ahead.

I expect you'll be on the hunt for a new wife or girlfriend as they realize how seriously messed up of an idea that is.

Here's the thing, most people play RPGs for fun. Not historical accuracy. Yes, that's a generalization, but it holds true more often than people claim it doesn't.

Once you start bringing in elements that hit too close to home on personal hot buttons, like Rape is to most Female Players, you have damaged the fun for those players, by prioritizing "historical accuracy."

It is NOT worth it.

You have an idea I vervently object to. I try not to threadcrap on ideas I'm not interested in. Sorry, but this is a proposal that is not good for you or your players happiness. It will upset somebody.

 

[Umbran]

You have an idea I vervently object to. I try not to threadcrap on ideas I'm not interested in. Sorry, but this is a proposal that is not good for you or your players happiness. It will upset somebody.

To bring it back around to the subject of the OP...

Some setting elements have to be given a "smoke test" - Does this make sense? Are there logical holes you can drive a truck through? Will it survive contact with the minds of players? How will players take this?

Making execution into a spectacle? Entirely reasonable. Solid historical precedent. Using criminals as forced labor? Also well founded.

The situation with the Duke's daughter, or other high placed ladies of court, giving themselves up to convicted criminals, doomed to die? I don't see how that one works, without some backstory that makes it necessary or beneficial to the women in question.