Miasma: Slow Inevitable Death?

[Clefton Twain]

A 7th level druid wouldn't last even a single round against a 20th level fighter.

I've seen 10th level fighters deal 60+ points of damage a round, a 20th level fighter would easily be in the 90+ range.

Even assuming max hit points and a 16 Con, a 7th level druid would have 77 hit points at most.

If you are assuming that the fighter starts within weapons reach of the druid, the druid is dead, even if he get's initiative.

Now if you want to assume that the druid is safely out of reach of the 20th level fighter when he casts his spell, and is able to escape before the fighter reaches him, the spell will last 35 rounds. You can hold your breath for double your con. A 20th level fighter will probably have a Con in the low 20's, due to magic. Even if you assume a Con of only 15, he can go 30 rounds before he has to make suffocation checks. At 20th level his Fort saves are going to be high enough to allow him to last another 5 rounds easily.

But that only proves that level 20 fighters are hard to kill. When dealing with other 7th level characters (especially arcane casters), the spell is almost automatic death for those with low Con scores, unless they have access to magic that will allow them to live without breathing. (And you can't cast spells with somatic components when you can't breathe.)

Hmmm...I think that example was a little extreme. Why don't we take a 7th-level Druid vs. a 9-10th level Fighter:

(first of all, as per the description, I'm making the assumption that, if you *don't* hold your breath, you'll be fine after the duration...it's only those who hold their breath and fail a check or decide to start breathing who die, right?)

The spell will last 35 rounds (unless extended). The druid can cast it at a pretty decent range. If the fighter chooses not to hold his breath, he is pretty much worthless--can't do anything but sputter and cough. I assume he can take a 5' move, though?

If he chooses to hold his breath, he has to outlive the duration (no way of really knowing the duration without metagaming). At this level, I doubt his constitution would be astronomical but it could be pretty good. So if he's got at least a 15, he will probably be fine.

But if the druid is...say, 9th level? That makes it a bit harder, doesn't it? Since the spell gets 5 rounds better every level, that far outdistances the advancements in CON even, say, a 12th level fighter could have. That's 10 more rounds tacked on for a total of 45. Gets a lot harder and a lot more dire for just a 4th level spell...and, again, there is no way of being assured what the duration is.

I guess I kind of see it as either 1) an instant disabler, no matter who it targets (SR nonwithstanding) or 2) a slow death spell for all except the most healthy of folk. True, the druid is probably going down. But if you have a party of four against, say an evil druid mastermind (bwahaha) and a few of his henchmen and animal companions, he could probably block you from easily getting to him. While hiding behind his minions, he could cast yet another miasma spell, perhaps making the party's spellcaster worthless.

First of all it doesn't make sense to me why you should die if you hold your breath and then voluntarily decide to breath.

Second, why shouldn't the people who don't hold their breath live? (as per the wording of the spell)

Third, why exactly should normal drowning rules apply to this spell?

Anyway, I think the spell is way overpowered AND that it really doesn't make much sense the way it's written.

--CT

 

[Orco42]

Gives you another good reason to cough up the 15 k for a Iridescent Spindle Ioun stone.

 

[Greatwyrm]

First of all it doesn't make sense to me why you should die if you hold your breath and then voluntarily decide to breath.

Second, why shouldn't the people who don't hold their breath live? (as per the wording of the spell)

Third, why exactly should normal drowning rules apply to this spell?

Anyway, I think the spell is way overpowered AND that it really doesn't make much sense the way it's written.

--CT

If you start breathing at any time during the duration of the spell, you must make the CON checks or begin to suffocate. It doesn't matter if this in on the first round or twenty-first. When you breathe, you would be taking an "unbreathable gas" into your lungs.

Your target's throat and mouth have been filled with an unbreathable gas. Simply breathing as normal from the outset does nothing to protect you. You just start making progressively difficult CON checks earlier. If your throat was full of chlorine or carbon monoxide, you couldn't just breathe with no ill effects.

Drowning rules are appropriate since the same rules are used whenever a target is deprived of air. Drowning, suffocation in poison gas, and being strangled all have the same net effect--no air.

As far as people just holding their breath living, they do live if they can hold their breath longer than the duration of the spell. That's the difficult part.

 

[The Lone Corndog]

Our group just picked up MotW, and our druid asked about Miasma. I only caught part of the conversation, so my understanding of the exact spell mechanics may be off, but as I understand it, the target drops to zero HP on the first round, unconscious on the second round and dies on the third round, unless some preventative action is taken, right?

The preventative action described in the spell is that holding one's breath stops the three-rounds-til-death sequence, at least untill one's Con prevents further breath-holding. If your ability to hold your breath exceeds the duration of the spell, you live. My question is this: when in the sequence of events does the target get to start holding his breath? Or to put it another way, do you drop to zero hits first, then hold breath to stop the death spiral, or do you get to hold your breath first, so that you don't lose your hits? Being reduced to zero hits means you have a long time stuck with partial actions til the spell runs its course - which kinda precludes the popular response of 'kill the druid!'

I suppose this begs the question of how the target is to know that holding his breath is the appropriate course of action in the first place. It seems a bit counter-intuitive that if you are suffering an attack that prevents you from breathing (ie, involuntary suffocation), that the first thing you would try is holding your breath (voluntary suffocation). "Oh, sh*t, I've been set on fire, what do I do? Oh, right, I'll torch my beard; that ought to help!" A spellcraft check may inform a spellcaster of the appropriate reaction, but those characters lacking that particular skill seem s.o.l. to me.

Obviously, if you have someone handy that can dispell the effect, or (maybe?)neutralize/remove poison, you're fine; again assuming that your savior knows exactly what is wrong with you (since you can't tell them verbally)

I dunno. Without access to the material, I'm just shooting some ideas out here that I didn't see addressed earlier. We (my group) await our DM's decision whether to allow the spell as is, allow it with some form of nerfage, or rule zero it altogether. I am interested in how this thread goes, though, so if nothing else, my little contribution will bump it back to the top of the pile.

 

[Clefton Twain]

Strangely worded, overpowered spell

Here's how the spell description looks:

"By filling the subject's mouth and throat with unbreathable gas, you prevent him or her from doing much more than coughing and spitting. The subject can hold his or her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution but must make a Constitution check (DC 10 +1 per previous success) each round thereafter to continue doing so. Failure on any such check (or voluntary resumption of breathing) causes the subject to fall unconscious (0 hp). On the next round, the subject drops to -1 hit points and is dying on the third round, he or she suffocates (see Suffocation in Chapter 3 of the DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide)."

I think I get it now...it's just really worded improperly. Unless you look at it closely, it sounds like the one who doesn't try to hold his breath just coughs and sputters while the one who *does* hold his breath is fine until he tries to breathe (and/or fails a check).

Wow...uh, can we get some errata on this, WotC? Not gonna happen in my campaign.

On a side note, I also think it's pretty ridiculous that the average joe can hold his breath for two or so minutes even when fighting and doing other rigorous activity. But that's neither here nor there.

--CT

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Miasma as written is so broken its funny. making it last 5 rounds a level basically means insta death for any foe that breathes of an appropriate CR for the party to face. That it also virtually nullifies spellcasters with no save for a 4th level spell is also absurd. Sure clerics get silence, but I can move out of the area so it only blocks a round or two of spells.

Fixes a will save to avoid it in the first place. I'd go with will so wiz/sor at least have a chance to survive this. Fort makes some sense since it is poison, but I'd see it as resisting the magic of getting the poison in your lungs, not resisting poison which seems more like a will save to me.

There are a lot of spells I wouldn't allow into a game form this book, this is just one of them. But hey me as dm wont put any extra druid/cleric spells into a game, I don't like divine casters getting large boosts in power every time a supplement comes out because all of a sudden their spell seleciton greatly increases. And I wouldn't let people sub things out for new spells, since I feel divine casters are way powerful enough without getting the ability to cherry pick their own spell lists. I look at these new spells as spells I'd let into the game(assuming they aren't broaken like miasma) if the player researches the spell in game.

 

[Mahali]

Re: Strangely worded, overpowered spell

Here's how the spell description looks:
I think I get it now...it's just really worded improperly. Unless you look at it closely, it sounds like the one who doesn't try to hold his breath just coughs and sputters while the one who *does* hold his breath is fine until he tries to breathe (and/or fails a check).
--CT

I thought that at first as well however carefully rereading the spell it says

Failure on any such check (or voluntary resumption of breathing) causes the subject to fall unconscious (0 hp). On the next round, the subject drops to -1 hit points and is dying on the third round, he or she suffocates (see Suffocation in Chapter 3 of the DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide)."

So you hold your breath while you beat the caster to death then you still might suffocate before the spell wears off.

 

[The Lone Corndog]

Maybe I'm just picking nits, here, but 0 Hp does not equal unconsciousness - you are 'disabled' at 0 HP and can only take partial actions. Unconsciousness starts at -1 HP, at least that's how the PH (pg. 129) defines them.

I guess I'm still not clear on the sequence of events for the unlucky target of this spell. Druid casts miasma on the target. On the target's next turn, what exactly happens? Does he get the opportunity to hold his breath immediately? Why would he get that chance - the spell has had no effect on him yet, so how does he know that he needs to hold his breath? If he can't try holding his breath until the spell has had it's initial effect, then he is reduced to zero HP (which is disabled, dammit, not unconscious).

Looking at it from a character casting the spell on a bad guy, then I would want the target to be reduced to zero HP right off the bat, then let him hold his breath if he can - he's limited to partial actions, can't attack me, and is on the verge of dying at my whim. If, however, the bad guy casts it on me, then I want the chance to hold my breath first, 'cause I don't want to get bent over like that. Since you can't have it both ways, I guess I fall on the more lenient second method: letting the victim hold his breath, even before the effects of the spell become apparent.

I only vote for this view out of a sense of self-preservation, not out of empathy for the poor bad guy. Logically, you shouldn't be able to take counter-measures until you know what you are taking counter-mesures against. By then, of course, it's too late - at least as this spell is written. Miasma is a nasty, nasty spell

 

[Malin Genie]

Ouch! I hadn't really noticed this spell until I read the thread...

Perhaps if it were an area effect spell, meaning that anyone in the area couldn't cast spells with V components, and would die if they remained in it too long, but could escape the cloud?

And it would stay useful and deadly if the druid could move it (like she can move a summoned swarm) with a move-equivalent action...