Middle Earth - LotR

[ecliptic]

Just because those guys uses the terms incorrectly doesn't mean... well, it doesn't mean anything. Thanks for the purty pictures, though.

Come back after you've found an actual expert on military arms and armament though, that uses the term "plate mail." I've never seen it.

It's true; I can't prove it's absence, because you can never truly prove an absence, but the idea of "plate mail" is nonsensical to me, because the definition of mail is armor constructed of linked rings, i.e. chain mail. Any other type of armor simply isn't mail.

Yet one of this is an armoury. You would think they would know exactly what type of armour they make. TSR just didn't make it up when they put it in their book.

 

[hong]

Yet one of this is an armoury. You would think they would know exactly what type of armour they make. TSR just didn't make it up when they put it in their book.

IIRC, there _is_ something that could colloquially be called "plate mail". This is in the transition period between chain mail and articulated plate armour, when people wore solid metal plates -- breastplate, greaves, vambraces -- over a regular suit of chainmail. However, this is not what's on any of those sites you listed, which all basically depict full articulated plate.

 

[Gentlegamer]

There was a literary reason for the hobbits, which purposefully didn't match the "heroic world" in which they lived, and were instead our link to a modern way of thought.

So that is one thematic and technological loophole in the theme of pre-Norman Anglo-Saxon England . . . the use of plate armor by Numenorean cultures is a reasonable loophole, as well.

Saruman is never said to have used any kind of "blasting powder" -- he certainly made some kind of explosions, but we have no idea what powered them. Saying that they were gunpowder is a bit of a stretch.

The exact words are "blasting fire from Orthanc." The source is never explained, but I think Jackson made a very reasonalbe interpretation in the film.

 

[Desdichado]

I'm not arguing that it isn't perfectly reasonable, all I'm saying is that stating as if it's a fact that he used gunpowder is not actually supported by the book.

To be perfectly honest with you, it's also the interpretation that I favor.

But as hong points out, it's not technically an "anachronism" because gunpowder did exist in the east. We also know that Saruman had previously traveled a lot in the east, and was obsessed with "devices" and whatnot anyway.

Plus, the idea of the march of "progress" replacing the heroic culture of the... uh, the heroes, is a strong theme in Tolkien. The fact that only Saruman and the orcs are described as having any interest in this type of thing (with the exception of Ted Sandyman, who was simply a Sharkey fanboy anyway ) certainly means something, I think.

 

[ecliptic]

Plate mail. Combination of both plate and chain mail. Full plate is wearing all plate.

It is also described the exact same way in AD&D 2nd ed PHB.

 

[Desdichado]

And now your tautology is complete...

Eh, sorry. Couldn't make a Star Wars paraphrase out of that after all.

 

[mmadsen]

In the original Book Trilogy, the heaviest armor one could find was a mail hauberk. I remember that when the previews came out for the Fellowship there was a big outcry among the purist community because of the elves and others wearing plated armors.

A part of me would have enjoyed seeing the elves in quasi-Roman lorica segmentata, to make the parallels even more explicit.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Plus, the idea of the march of "progress" replacing the heroic culture of the... uh, the heroes, is a strong theme in Tolkien. The fact that only Saruman and the orcs are described as having any interest in this type of thing (with the exception of Ted Sandyman, who was simply a Sharkey fanboy anyway ) certainly means something, I think.

The Men of Westernesse also were guilty of pursuing "progress." Hence, their build up of power and ultimate fall from grace. Also, the world of Men replaces the world of Elves, a kind of "progress," not necessarily benign. To paraphrase Galadriel, her world had been "fighting the long defeat."

 

[Desdichado]

That's not technological progress, though. In fact, there's a marked technological anti-progress going on amongst the men of Westernesse. The Gondorians have no idea how their ancestors built things like Orthanc, for instance, of the Black Gate. And even those were only pale reflections of actual Numenorean skill.

 

[Sigurd]

Check out Rolemaster and Merp

I almost hate to say it around here but I think the D20 universe is wrong for Tolkien. Iron Crown Enterprises did a marvelous Tolkien rendition up until they lost\couldn't afford the franchise. Its still my choice for tolkien. Sad to say they are not in production anymore but you might still be able to scare up old copies on Ebay or find pdfs.

D20 is way too active magic rich, and twitchy. Tolkien's backstory plays out in hundreds and hundreds of years with most of the magic much more subtle than magic missle and fireball. D20, perhaps by virtue of its popularity, can be everything to everybody but seldom reserved.

Tolkien the D20 Version.

1) Gandalf tries to teleport to mount doom with Frodo and finds that the way is blocked.
2) Gandalf hides Frodo in another dimension.
3) Gandalf polymorphs Sam, Pippen, Merrydock and 3 more hobbits into flying creatures with instructions to fly to mount doom and drink a reversal potion - then summon him.

4) The six birds of the ring make their way with various mishaps to mount doom. 2 die at the hands of Sauron's minions. 1 is shot and eaten by Aragorn who has indigenstion but doesn't know why.
5) Finally Sam lands near the gate of mount doom before a small orc detachment. The orcs chase Sam for dinner but he transforms and summons Gandalf. Gandalf fireballs the orcs and clears the way for Frodo right up to the brink.
6) Frodo is summoned from another dimension and is told to dump the ring in the crevice. He makes his challenge role ( he is a hero ). Dumps the ring and Sauron Looses a whack of power.

7) Only this is D20 where powerful badies always seem to have more power to find. In the week since the adventure began Sauron has shifted focus from the ring and has an undead army and an alliance with Sauruman to fall back on.




S