Middle Earth - LotR

[ruleslawyer]

You're right, it isn't about who is right, but in this case you're not.

Tolkien was very clear about what "age" of history/mythology he was trying to emulate -- the heyday of the "Heroic" germanic tradition.

Since you're a self-professed Tolkien geek, allow me to suggest some possible counter-points to that assertion, Joshua. Tolkien was writing as a mythologist-folklorist, not a historical novelist: Leave that to the Harry Turtledoves and James Clavells of this world. Tolkien was writing to recreate a mood paralleling that of the Nordic/Germanic sagas (which, in the case of the pre-eminent works, actually span a period well into 15th-century Europe, if you're looking at, say, the Eddas), but there are elements of chivalric-period chansons, Chaucer, and good ol' fashioned 16th-19th century English folktales heavily sprinkling the mix. As far as "emulat[ing]" an actual historic age: Where do you get that idea from an epic that includes English gentleman farmer-types (the Shire-folk), mercantile late-medieval types (the men of Eriador and Lake-Town), French-style chivalric orders (the Knights of Dol Amroth: Pay attention, they aren't Celtic-Saxon cnichts, but an actual chivalric order, as bits and pieces of the Appendix to RotK indicate), and gunpowder- and siege-engine-using goblins/orcs? It seems to me that Tolkien is trying to construct a truly timeless saga (heck, one of its major themes is the insidious and dehumanizing nature of modern industry!) using some of the tools of the Nordic sagas. Within that, however, there's plenty of support for the idea that the warriors in Tolkien's works could have been wearing plate armor; perhaps not Gothic and Renaissance articulated suits, but certainly the plate-and-mail combos featured in the movies, f'rex.

But clearly, it's not something that Tolkien was very clear about in the actual text of the books and contrary to all the fans that were in an uproar over the "knights of Gondor" that Peter Jackson put on the screen, I honestly don't think its that big of a deal. In fact, Tolkien might have been amused to see his creation take on a life of its own like this, not unlike the mythology on which he modelled it, which always seemed to reflect more the world of the scribe who wrote it down than the original sources which created it.

Damn' straight.

 

[ecliptic]

Knight is an older term than plate armor. As for stating where that is stated, you can't prove a negative. Can you find a place where plate armor is ever described? I guarantee that you cannot. With the exception of the Southron I mentioned and the vambrace (which does not imply plate armor) every time armor is mentioned, it is mail. And the fact that he used the word mail does, in fact, rule out plate armor; there is actually no such thing as "plate mail."

Plate mail.

http://members.aol.com/dargolyt/TheForge/plate.htm

Plate mail helmet.

http://metalprojects.no-ip.com/helm.html

More plate mail.

http://www.housephoenixarmory.com/platesets.htm

 

[Steverooo]

"And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses; and behind them seven hundreds of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came." RotK:41 ("Minas Tirith", near the end).

Also, if one admits the existence of bracers, greaves, and vambraces (which have both upper and lower cannons), then it is silly to assume that no one would put them together. Cuirasses can't be far off. Hence, "platemail".

Also, plate armour existed in ME in the SA (Second Age). The guards of (IIRC) the second gate of Gondolin wore it. See the description in the first book of unfinished tales, when Tuor passes through the gates.

 

[Desdichado]

Well, for a culture that has existed for 5,000 years in Andor and Endor, I don't think it is nonsensical for the Numenoreans to have developed arms and armor equivalent to our own High Middle Ages and beyond. Remember, Tolkien was writing a romance and not beholden to the exact technological development of the thematic era he invoked. After all, hobbits wore waistcoats, smoked tobacco, and used umbrellas; Sauraman developed "blasting fire" (form of gunpowder) . . . all "anachronisms" for the theme of a pre-Norman Anglo-Saxon world.

There was a literary reason for the hobbits, which purposefully didn't match the "heroic world" in which they lived, and were instead our link to a modern way of thought.

Saruman is never said to have used any kind of "blasting powder" -- he certainly made some kind of explosions, but we have no idea what powered them. Saying that they were gunpowder is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Desdichado]

Plate mail.

http://members.aol.com/dargolyt/TheForge/plate.htm

Plate mail helmet.

http://metalprojects.no-ip.com/helm.html

More plate mail.

http://www.housephoenixarmory.com/platesets.htm

Just because those guys uses the terms incorrectly doesn't mean... well, it doesn't mean anything. Thanks for the purty pictures, though.

Come back after you've found an actual expert on military arms and armament though, that uses the term "plate mail." I've never seen it.

It's true; I can't prove it's absence, because you can never truly prove an absence, but the idea of "plate mail" is nonsensical to me, because the definition of mail is armor constructed of linked rings, i.e. chain mail. Any other type of armor simply isn't mail.

 

[Desdichado]

"And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses; and behind them seven hundreds of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came." RotK:41 ("Minas Tirith", near the end).

OK. What's your point? Is a harness now equivalent to "plate mail?"

Also, if one admits the existence of bracers, greaves, and vambraces (which have both upper and lower cannons), then it is silly to assume that no one would put them together. Cuirasses can't be far off. Hence, "platemail".

As I said earler, bracers, vambraces and greaves existed in the Mycenean greek culture as did cuirasses, but anything approaching full plate armor most certainly did not. Your "logic" is not supported by the actual development of military technology in the ancient world. It is nice logic, but it's just not right.

Also, plate armour existed in ME in the SA (Second Age). The guards of (IIRC) the second gate of Gondolin wore it. See the description in the first book of unfinished tales, when Tuor passes through the gates.

That would be interesting if you do remember correctly. I'll pull out my UT when I get home, assuming I have time tonight, and check. Be that as it may, the guards of Gondor as opposed to Gondolin are specifically described as wearing mail, not "plate" so I'm not sure what relevence that actually has.

 

[Desdichado]

Since you're a self-professed Tolkien geek, allow me to suggest some possible counter-points to that assertion, Joshua. Tolkien was writing as a mythologist-folklorist, not a historical novelist: Leave that to the Harry Turtledoves and James Clavells of this world. Tolkien was writing to recreate a mood paralleling that of the Nordic/Germanic sagas (which, in the case of the pre-eminent works, actually span a period well into 15th-century Europe, if you're looking at, say, the Eddas), but there are elements of chivalric-period chansons, Chaucer, and good ol' fashioned 16th-19th century English folktales heavily sprinkling the mix. As far as "emulat[ing]" an actual historic age: Where do you get that idea from an epic that includes English gentleman farmer-types (the Shire-folk), mercantile late-medieval types (the men of Eriador and Lake-Town), French-style chivalric orders (the Knights of Dol Amroth: Pay attention, they aren't Celtic-Saxon cnichts, but an actual chivalric order, as bits and pieces of the Appendix to RotK indicate), and gunpowder- and siege-engine-using goblins/orcs? It seems to me that Tolkien is trying to construct a truly timeless saga (heck, one of its major themes is the insidious and dehumanizing nature of modern industry!) using some of the tools of the Nordic sagas. Within that, however, there's plenty of support for the idea that the warriors in Tolkien's works could have been wearing plate armor; perhaps not Gothic and Renaissance articulated suits, but certainly the plate-and-mail combos featured in the movies, f'rex.

Your interpretations of those various elements of Middle-earth are certainly very debatable.

 

[hong]

There was a literary reason for the hobbits, which purposefully didn't match the "heroic world" in which they lived, and were instead our link to a modern way of thought.

Saruman is never said to have used any kind of "blasting powder" -- he certainly made some kind of explosions, but we have no idea what powered them. Saying that they were gunpowder is a bit of a stretch.

It's not unreasonable to assume it was something like gunpowder. It wouldn't exactly be anachronistic either for a 12th century time frame; after all, the Chinese had it already by then. Okay, that's on the other side of the world to Europe, but in terms of Middle-Earth, Saruman is one smart cookie. He's also in league with the guy who controls 90% of the known world. It doesn't seem too far-fetched to say that he would know about all sorts of devious imports from foreign lands, including ways to blow things up, that wouldn't be so well-known to the good guys.

 

[Desdichado]

Oh, I know. But "not unreasonable" is not the same as "this is definitely what he used... even though Tolkien never described the source of his explosions."

 

[diaglo]

It's not unreasonable to assume it was something like gunpowder. It wouldn't exactly be anachronistic either for a 12th century time frame; after all, the Chinese had it already by then. Okay, that's on the other side of the world to Europe, but in terms of Middle-Earth, Saruman is one smart cookie. He's also in league with the guy who controls 90% of the known world. It doesn't seem too far-fetched to say that he would know about all sorts of devious imports from foreign lands, including ways to blow things up, that wouldn't be so well-known to the good guys.

bah. he was smoking too much of that hobbit weed.