Middle Earth questions

Yeah, I thought about that after I posted...

I don't know, of course, but I always got the impression that the bulk of the organized, civilized people of Middle Earth resided in the region Tolkien detailed. Beyond that region, the population density and civilization level probably dropped dramatically. That's just a guess, based on what we know of Tolkien; I get the feeling he would have considered the rest of Middle Earth a wilderness, essentially.
 

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Are there any hints anywhere of when Saruman became corrupted? I've often wondered if he's at all responsible for Pallando and Alatar disappearing.
 


Welverin said:
Are there any hints anywhere of when Saruman became corrupted? I've often wondered if he's at all responsible for Pallando and Alatar disappearing.

It was a gradual process. It probably had started before Third Age 2851, when he ruled against attacking Sauron in Dol Guldur, but he was probably really on the way to corruption around 2953 TA, when he took over Isengard. It was complete around 3000 TA, when he was dominated by Sauron via the palantir. Of course, he kept this well hidden, it seems, until he imprisoned Gandalf right around the time Frodo set out for Rivendell.

Personally, I doubt Tolkien ever intended for him to be responsible for the seeming disappearance of the Blue Wizards. But, it makes an interesting bit of character background if he was.
 

Storminator said:
I think the question was directed at those places off the edge of the maps. What's beyond Harad, or Rhun?

And of course, that's kind of hard to answer!

PS

yup! ... and thanks col again.

so okay there's not much else out there (not that ME was small to begin with ... or is it?)

muchas gracias

ej
 

Colonel sez:
I don't know, of course, but I always got the impression that the bulk of the organized, civilized people of Middle Earth resided in the region Tolkien detailed. Beyond that region, the population density and civilization level probably dropped dramatically. That's just a guess, based on what we know of Tolkien; I get the feeling he would have considered the rest of Middle Earth a wilderness, essentially.
/colonel

For Tolkien it all goes back to the elves. Why are the important kingdoms all in one particular area of middle-earth? Why are the three houses of the Edain (and the Numenorians, Dunadain and Gondorans descended from them) more powerful and civilized than other humans?
It is because they migrated to the west and happened to run into Finrod Felagund (one of the most interesting chars in the whole thing imho) and the other High Elves. Why are Lothlorien and Rivendell and Eregion and the Gray Havens the most powerful Elven kingdoms? Because the elves in those places were ruled by those who had been to Valinor. This influence, starting with the Noldor is what "raised" humans of the three houses to a superior position vis-a-vis the rest of the world. THAT is why they got invited to Atlantis, i mean Numenor.
The people in the rest of the world are less important and more suseptable to Sauron because of their lack of interaction with the elves. They hate and fear them because of the lies that Sauron has told about them.
You can see the extent of decay in Gondor when Boromir himself believes in some of these tales about the evil of elves (his fear of the lady of the golden wood aka galadriel).

As far as population density, I don't think anywhere in Middle-Earth (with a possible exception for Gondor) is highly populated. Look at Eriador, nothing but a bunch of rangers and scattered towns. The roads aren't safe, travellers uncommon. I'd venture to guess that the other areas are populated about the same.
 

I would imagine that Gondor, especially in places like Dol Amroth, is fairly densely populated, at least relatively speaking. I'd also assume this of Harad. These areas were spared the worst of the fighting between Sauron and Gondor. The reason much of Eriador is underpopulated has to do with Arnor being completely destroyed, including being overrun by Angmar a few times, and suffering the plague. Gondor was not the focus of Angmar, so remained relatively intact. Cardolan and Rhudaur, especially, bore the brunt of the Witch-King's wrath, and never recovered.

Minas Tirith seemed underpopulated because people tried to stay away from it as Sauron's power grew in Mordor; for example, remember how the various forces sent by the provinces of Gondor just before the Battle of Pelennor Fields were seen as being too few? Not because the forces weren't there; it was because the bulk of the fighting strength was kept at home because Minas Tirith was looking like it would fall.

I think there were a few areas of Middle Earth that were fairly well populated: Dale and Erebor, northern Mirkwood, Dol Amroth, Harad, Rhun, and a lot fo Gondor's coastal area besides Dol Amroth. The Shire, of course, was also pretty well-populated. I'd also imagine there was at least a good number of Dwarves in the Grey Mountains.

I think another good indication of Gondor's and much of the former Arnor's population density is the fact that Aragorn rebuilt the northern kingdom pretty early on in the Fourth Age. There had to be people there to populate it.

I think the reason Middle earth seems so underpopulated is because we see so much of what was once Arnor, which, as I noted above, still hadn't recovered from millennia of war. If the Fellowship had trekked through southern Gondor, I think we'd have a different impression.

Just my thoughts on the subject.
 


Wow, a lot of stuff happened while I was away from the thread!

A2Z, those maps of what's beyond "rhun" and "harad" are not canon by even a fairly liberal interpretation of the word, most having been done for ICE.

The question is a bit silly anyway. Since rhun and harad mean simply east and south, you can't really say what's beyond east and south. Some of the easterlings mentioned in the war of the ring (LOTR books) are described as "new types" from out of the far east, and there are references to both near and far harad. When Tolkien says Rhun and Harad, you shouldn't look at the map and say "there's rhun, there's harad" because that's not really so. The map is just the limit of the lands that are well known to the Dunedain. Beyond the lands that are well known, the map put big labels of East (Rhun) and South (Harad) to indicate that there are more lands beyond them, simply that we don't really know what they are like.
 


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