...Midnight?

[mrswing]

Granted Midnight is definetely either a "your thing" or "not your thing" sort of issue, it doesn't seem to be much of an inbetween.

[/B]

I'm one of the few fence sitters then. Though there is a lot I like about Midnight, I dislike a lot of other stuff.

Like :

- some of the new classes, especially the defender
- role playing is encouraged (check the aforementioned story hours for excellent examples)
- the rules are adapted to the setting to make the entire experience unique
- everyone can use magic if they have the prerequisite feat
- less resurrection possibilities making it a deadlier game which promotes more careful thinking by the players
- all PCs have a special lineage which allows for extra powers as they progress through the game
- character races have been rethought and given new cultural backgrounds which are very inspiring
- Prestige and legendary classes are all up to the FFG high standard and present some very nice character archetypes.

Dislike :

- specialized spell casters seem far too weak at high levels (conversely they are far stronger than their D&D counterparts at low level). Which is strange because in general the characters are tougher than in regular D&D games.
- the bleakness of the setting : there is no way to defeat the Big Bad or his main lieutenants, even though that seems like the most logical campaign goal
- it promotes a DM vs. Players attitude which I personally dislike (and which can be found in CoC too). For proof check out the (excellent) Yahoo Midnight Group. It seems like many DMs can't wait to put their players in ever more desperate situations from which they cannot possibly escape just to prove how dark this setting is. I prefer a more co-operative approach.
- some of the rules choices made are disliked by several players (e.g. the magic use, Giantblooded blood line which gains reach but not a strength bonus only for game balance even though logic dictates otherwise - and if you don't use AoO's your Giantblooded character is basically screwed). There have been endless debates in the Yahoo group between the (very accessible) creators and some of the fans on these topics.
- I wonder about the long-time appeal of the setting if one sticks to the hopelessness-approach. It seems most suited to a finite campaign with a world-shattering finale rather than years and years of play. Basically, if PCs really are to succeed, they destroy the campaign setting status quo in an irreversible fashion, while if they do not stand a chance at a real success, the game becomes a long battle of attrition which will result in their agonzing death.

I'm still sticking around and checking it out some more, but I may give up the Midnight campaign material in the future. But there's no denying that there are some excellent innovations to d20 to be found within its covers.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

I'd like to take a few of these on and offer up my opinions.

Dislike :

- specialized spell casters seem far too weak at high levels (conversely they are far stronger than their D&D counterparts at low level). Which is strange because in general the characters are tougher than in regular D&D games.

This is a common misconception. Yes, at lower levels, spellcasters CAN be more powerful. However, it does have a balancing factor. A low level spellcaster WILL NOT survive an encounter with an Asterax.

Sure, your 1st leel channeler can sling quiet a few 1st level spells. however, everytime he does, he puts himself at risk of drawing a sniffer's attention. This can be a death sentence. Its definately not a problem in my campaign. My players only use magic in the most dire circumstances.

- the bleakness of the setting : there is no way to defeat the Big Bad or his main lieutenants, even though that seems like the most logical campaign goal

This is a "like it or you don't" situation. There are other worthy goals. Maybe you can free a city? Heck, at high levels, I might even say a Night King could be a legitamate target.

- it promotes a DM vs. Players attitude which I personally dislike (and which can be found in CoC too). For proof check out the (excellent) Yahoo Midnight Group. It seems like many DMs can't wait to put their players in ever more desperate situations from which they cannot possibly escape just to prove how dark this setting is. I prefer a more co-operative approach.

It CAN be that way, but it doesn't have to be. I really find myself rooting for my players.

- some of the rules choices made are disliked by several players (e.g. the magic use, Giantblooded blood line which gains reach but not a strength bonus only for game balance even though logic dictates otherwise - and if you don't use AoO's your Giantblooded character is basically screwed). There have been endless debates in the Yahoo group between the (very accessible) creators and some of the fans on these topics.

I personally haven't had any problems. *shrug* Maybe I've just been lucky.

- I wonder about the long-time appeal of the setting if one sticks to the hopelessness-approach. It seems most suited to a finite campaign with a world-shattering finale rather than years and years of play. Basically, if PCs really are to succeed, they destroy the campaign setting status quo in an irreversible fashion, while if they do not stand a chance at a real success, the game becomes a long battle of attrition which will result in their agonzing death.

I agree to a certain extent. I handle this by running Midnight and a standard D&D campaign on alternating weekends. This helps stave off burnout from Midnight very serious and depressing aspects.

I'm still sticking around and checking it out some more, but I may give up the Midnight campaign material in the future. But there's no denying that there are some excellent innovations to d20 to be found within its covers.

Yes indeed, and I hope you stick with it.

 

[Orias]

The issue with the bleakness of the setting is a big part.

I really enjoy, generally the darker the setting, the more I happen to like it.

The thing about Midnight, is that it is indeed limited by it's bleakness. There is so much you can do, & a lot that you cannot. However, it is the perfect setting for what it is presented to be.

This may be blasphemous to some of the Midnight fans, but if you stick in a Midnight campaign for a long time, work your characters extremely hard, do all of these great & epic things - I don't see why you couldn't defeat Izrador & the Night Kings. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that you could kill Izrador in a party on him fight. I don't think many, many people could "kill" him, but defeating him is an entirely different matter. He has been defeated twice, & just because he has taken hold on the continent for over a hundred years, doesn't mean that in *your* game you couldn't one day have your legendary characters wrestle control of a good part of the world from him.

It's your game, you have limitless possibilities as long as you stick to the theme. One thing that is bad about the setting (perhaps not the setting so much, but the opinions of the people who play it), is the opinions of what you "can't" do. There is always a possibility for everything in a world where magic & fantasy exists, as long as you are true to the themes, threats, & ideas of the setting, you can do a lot.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

I don't think it is blasphemous and I'm about as hard-core Midnight as anyone can be.

I think it would be cool to run a Midnight campaign from levels 1 - 20 and actually be able to force Izrador's forces back into the north at the end of the campaign.

I'm not sure I'd be willing to run anything like that anytime soon, but it has it's place and is certainly an option.

Like you said, he could be defeated without being destroyed.

 

[Orias]

I would really like to run or play in such a game, but it would take a lot of work, on both sides of the issue.

 

[mrswing]

Sure, your 1st leel channeler can sling quiet a few 1st level spells. however, everytime he does, he puts himself at risk of drawing a sniffer's attention. This can be a death sentence. Its definately not a problem in my campaign. My players only use magic in the most dire circumstances.


It sort of sits oddly with me when I read about all the powerful magics being used (especially by the elves). Perhaps the rediscovery of a different type of magic use could be a campaign focus?

This is a "like it or you don't" situation. There are other worthy goals. Maybe you can free a city? Heck, at high levels, I might even say a Night King could be a legitamate target.

I absolutely agree, however the FFG people do not. Personally I think the redemption/elimination of even one Night King would make an excellent long term goal. There are no Night King stats available though and it seems like none will be made available (certainly not in the short term). Of course one can always make them up (erm... actually that is what RPGing is all about, even), but the official line seems to be that Izrador and the Night Kings are totally off limits as viable opponents for the PCs. Which I personally find strange - even the Witchking of Angmar could be disposed of by 'PC surrogates'

It CAN be that way, but it doesn't have to be. I really find myself rooting for my players.

Then you are exactly the type of DM I like. However some other DMs seem to go out of their way to screw the players over, in a situation where the odds are already firmly stacked against them. This is not just a Midnight problem though.

I agree to a certain extent. I handle this by running Midnight and a standard D&D campaign on alternating weekends. This helps stave off burnout from Midnight very serious and depressing aspects.

I came up with a few campaign goals which might bolster hope without destroying the Big Bad Guy, but change the Midnight world in the long run (I suppose there's a sort of Dragonlance vibe to this, but then Midnight borrowed from DL too by declaring clerics to be extinct - not to mention Dark Sun (functioning clerics are the worshipers/tools of the Bad Guy) and Earthdawn (covenant Items gaining in strength as levels increase, the impenetrable Elven wood with their powerful and increasingly remote/bizarre sorceress-queen).
Anyway - what if the heroes try to 'create' a new god to oppose Izrador? Either have the Whispering Wood become a deity (maybe through the sacrifice of all the Elves?), or have Arandil ascend to godhood (if enough individuals pray to her and believe in her, the spiritual energy might create an apotheosis - especially if one or more Dark Mirrors get turned to Light)? Or, for a truly unique experience - what if one of the PCs becomes a god? if they reach Epic levels, perhaps they can ascend from mortal to deity (through a similar arcane ritual? By killing a Night King and harnessing the power in themselves? Probably dying in whatever process causes the ascension?). After which, the cleric class can be reintroduced, one person at a time, and the forces of Izrador will face a new challenge to their rule (to eliminate the free healing problem, be sure to make the new deity either fairly weak at first and unable to offer anything above 2nd or 3rd level spells, or choose his/her portfolio in such a way that resurrection etc. doesn't exist or is strictly limited.

Just some ideas... Hmm, seems like Midnight IS a more inspiring setting than I thought at first after all!



Yes indeed, and I hope you stick with it. [/B]

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Just some ideas... Hmm, seems like Midnight IS a more inspiring setting than I thought at first after all!

My work here is done.

 

[Numion]

/ Casts Raise Thread /

I broke down and ordered the damn setting. Now I don't usually buy non-Monte, non-WotC d20 products. This will be the first one in that category.

So it better be good

Sad thing is that I ordered it through my FLGS and it arrives in 3-8 weeks

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

/ Casts Raise Thread /

I broke down and ordered the damn setting. Now I don't usually buy non-Monte, non-WotC d20 products. This will be the first one in that category.

So it better be good

Sad thing is that I ordered it through my FLGS and it arrives in 3-8 weeks

If you like dark, gritty, rare magic settings, you will be very happy.

Midnight is the homebrew setting I always wanted to build.

 

[Desdichado]

I've got plenty of non-Monte, non-WotC stuff. I've got Midnight. It looks to be as good as anything I've got. Unfortunately, I've got a rather large backlog of stuff I have yet to read (hopefully I'll finish up Ghostwalk soon and then Midnight's next!) That said, I have flipped through it and looked at some of it. Some of it immediately will be integrated into the homebrew I'm developing to run in a few months when my regular group gets back together.