D&D 5E Might&Magic: the linear fighter and the exponential wizard

[Garthanos]

Reply to OP.
Maybe Spellcasters are more versatile than martial characters, but I would argue that the more versatile Spellcasting classes work best, and more importantly, are remembered, as support characters.

The favorite memory that my old group had of my old Sorcerer was not the innumerable fireballs or wall of fires I dropped.
No. It was when A) I counterspelled a death knight's destructive wave, and the DM was reduced to hysterical laughter, and B) when I quickened polymorphed myself into a giant ape and then threw the barbarian like a baseball at the Balor demon we were fighting.

My favorite memory of me and my dad's homegame is not when his wizard finally dropped his first fireball, but rather when his wizard levitated the barbarian, Druid, and rogue up to the second story of a serpent temple so as to pursue the evil priestess.

My favorite memory of playing with our new group came just last night, when our new group was fighting an Ettin and a "Hell-Bear". My Half-Orc War Cleric cast a humble bless on the Dwarf Fighter, who promptly wrenched the maul out of the Ettin's left hand and fearlessly soloed the Hell-Bear like a total badass, knowing that if he went down I would simply heal him back up.

Some people definitely like support characters and enablers... this and being very team oriented design is one of the reasons the Warlord was popular.

 

[FrogReaver]

So I just charted out a DPR chart by level against 16 AC and a fighter over the course of 20 levels stays pretty linear in the daily damage department. He has a few peaks and valleys of course, but by and large with everything factored in his damage is pretty linear.

Is a wizards damage output linear as well? Has anyone actually made a chart of expected damage for a wizard in a day to see?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

D&D has long had a problem with making mundane 10+ level characters superhuman, which is what they should be. Trained skills at this level should be bordering on the implausible: melding ninja-like into the tiniest of shadows or disappearing in the blink of an eye; climbing sheer, almost featureless, surfaces; or having a swordfight while standing on the back of a galloping horse. At the same time, spellcasters are getting truly impressive magic--teleport, polymorph, etc. It's not much of a contest.

Pretty much this. Captain America is what a fighter should look like at 10th level. They should look like Thor at 15th, casually killing giants in 1 hit, rearranging the flow of rivers, jumping 50+ feet and using their weapons/armor in innovative ways (reflecting spells, breaking floors, attacking everyone in a 30+ radius etc). 15th level rogues should be stealing people's memories or sweet talking the sun into rising early.

Casters magic has always been way too reliable and common to keep fighters shackled by some couch potato's feeble imagination of what should be humanly possible. The "muh v-tude" crowd needs to kiss off for a class they aren't even playing. It frankly hurts my suspension of disbelief that any character WOULDN'T know magic in 5e, given how easy it is to apparently learn. Make a gimp fighter class if you really want to play Pippin to someone else's Dr. Strange.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

So I just charted out a DPR chart by level against 16 AC and a fighter over the course of 20 levels stays pretty linear in the daily damage department. He has a few peaks and valleys of course, but by and large with everything factored in his damage is pretty linear.

Is a wizards damage output linear as well? Has anyone actually made a chart of expected damage for a wizard in a day to see?

Wizards get damage AND utility. That's why we'll always have LFQW.

Honestly, they shoudlnt be able to cast most spells in a single round of combat to keep it balanced. Build magical energy as a move action while tossing cantrips for a few rounds and then toss off a spell.

 

[FrogReaver]

Wizards get damage AND utility. That's why we'll always have LFQW.

Honestly, they shoudlnt be able to cast most spells in a single round of combat to keep it balanced. Build magical energy as a move action while tossing cantrips for a few rounds and then toss off a spell.

totally disagree with the bolded.

Also, they do get damage and utility. BUT damage and utility isn't what makes wizards get called exponential...

 

[Ancalagon]

So I just charted out a DPR chart by level against 16 AC and a fighter over the course of 20 levels stays pretty linear in the daily damage department. He has a few peaks and valleys of course, but by and large with everything factored in his damage is pretty linear.

Is a wizards damage output linear as well? Has anyone actually made a chart of expected damage for a wizard in a day to see?

I don't know if it's linear or not... interestingly there is a big jump at level 3 (fireball baby) but then the climb in damage (per spell) is pretty gentle - a level 5-6 spell doesn't do a ton more damage than a fireball. However, there are more slots to use admittedly.

However I think that ultimately this isn't about DPR. High level casters have reality bending powers that are much more game changing than just doing some damage.

 

[FrogReaver]

I don't know if it's linear or not... interestingly there is a big jump at level 3 (fireball baby) but then the climb in damage (per spell) is pretty gentle - a level 5-6 spell doesn't do a ton more damage than a fireball. However, there are more slots to use admittedly.

However I think that ultimately this isn't about DPR. High level casters have reality bending powers that are much more game changing than just doing some damage.

If casters were scaling exponentially you would see average DPR per day scaling exponentially for them as well. I don't think they scale exponentially in damage output but I could be wrong? If this is true it means the issue isn't exponential power increase, it's just the versatility increase.

 

[Ancalagon]

If casters were scaling exponentially you would see average DPR per day scaling exponentially for them as well. I don't think they scale exponentially in damage output but I could be wrong? If this is true it means the issue isn't exponential power increase, it's just the versatility increase.

Power isn't just about damage. A good divination spell can be *invaluable*.

 

[CapnZapp]

Pretty much this. Captain America is what a fighter should look like at 10th level. They should look like Thor at 15th, casually killing giants in 1 hit, rearranging the flow of rivers, jumping 50+ feet and using their weapons/armor in innovative ways (reflecting spells, breaking floors, attacking everyone in a 30+ radius etc). 15th level rogues should be stealing people's memories or sweet talking the sun into rising early.

Casters magic has always been way too reliable and common to keep fighters shackled by some couch potato's feeble imagination of what should be humanly possible. The "muh v-tude" crowd needs to kiss off for a class they aren't even playing. It frankly hurts my suspension of disbelief that any character WOULDN'T know magic in 5e, given how easy it is to apparently learn. Make a gimp fighter class if you really want to play Pippin to someone else's Dr. Strange.

Maybe you need to play a supers game to get it out of your system...? [emoji6]

 

[Garthanos]

Pretty much this. Captain America is what a fighter should look like at 10th level. They should look like Thor at 15th, casually killing giants in 1 hit, rearranging the flow of rivers, jumping 50+ feet and using their weapons/armor in innovative ways (reflecting spells, breaking floors, attacking everyone in a 30+ radius etc). 15th level rogues should be stealing people's memories or sweet talking the sun into rising early.

Casters magic has always been way too reliable and common to keep fighters shackled by some couch potato's feeble imagination of what should be humanly possible. The "muh v-tude" crowd needs to kiss off for a class they aren't even playing. It frankly hurts my suspension of disbelief that any character WOULDN'T know magic in 5e, given how easy it is to apparently learn. Make a gimp fighter class if you really want to play Pippin to someone else's Dr. Strange.

Pretty much .... its them darn caster supremacists , now if they do not mind their mages being fairly mundane instead of reality shattering they could slow progression to half rate (ie when you hit level 3 you get level 2 abilities and level 5 level 3) and stay in the range of 1 to 10 where they won't have to deal with heroes being appropriately like Herakles and Odysseus or Paul Bunyan or Perseus.