Mike Mearls and "Action Economy"

[Yaarel]

For myself, immersion happens when I am reading a good book. There are moments when I see the scene so clearly, I am not even seeing the words on the page that are being read.

The same kind of experience can take place during a vivid gaming encounter. The scene becomes live.

Mainly, two things interfere with my immersion, because they call attention to something away from the scene.

Theater of mind helps immersion. By contrast, looking at a grid and counting off squares interferes.
• Looking at minis is a 3rd-person perspective, that conflicts with the 1st-person perspective of immersion.
• Rules that call too much attention to the grid positioning distract from the immersive scene.
• Counting squares is unnatural. In reallife, I never ‘count squares’ to walk somewhere. There are more natural ways to estimate distance.

Rules that lack natural language.
• Rules that are nonobvious and need to be looked up, interfere with immersion.
• Rules that have technical jargon, require obscure calculations, or similarly call attention to themselves.
• Rules that have a baked in flavor that disagrees with the flavor in play in the immersive scene.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Mainly, two things interfere with my immersion, because they call attention to something away from the scene.

Theater of mind helps immersion. By contrast, looking at a grid and counting off squares interferes.

I find that TotM is fine for immersion until a new element is added to the scene or a misapprehension is corrected - and that happens constantly, because the DM is forced to coordinate everyone's mental image of the scene.
In contrast, visual aids immediately put everyone on the same page, which is more immersive.

• Rules that are nonobvious and need to be looked up, interfere with immersion.
• Rules that have technical jargon, require obscure calculations, or similarly call attention to themselves.

More a matter of familiarity & comfort with the rules. If you know the jargon cold and have mastered the non-obvious rules forward-and-backwards, then they're no barrier to immersion. OTOH, if you go to a new set of rules, boom, they're all obvious again.

But, my personal experience is that I'm more likely to get an immersive feel from a new ed early on, before I have the rules down, the fact that the game world gets to be more of a mystery, less a known quantity, more than makes up for the obtrusiveness of unfamiliar rules.

• Rules that have a baked in flavor that disagrees with the flavor in play in the immersive scene.

Nod. Games can be specialized for a particular tone, setting, flavor, or more generic. D&D, for instance, mostly 'does D&D' (classic D&D) so if that's what you sit down expecting, you're good. If, instead, you actually get the flavor of S&S or medieval fantasy or something, boom cognitive dissonance and pop goes the immersions.

 

[Yaarel]

I find that TotM is fine for immersion until a new element is added to the scene or a misapprehension is corrected - and that happens constantly, because the DM is forced to coordinate everyone's mental image of the scene. In contrast, visual aids immediately put everyone on the same page, which is more immersive.

Yeah, there is some truth that. Immersion can handle some ‘slack’, stepping in and out of immersion to clarify an issue (or roll dice), while maintaining the immersive state. But if there is too much disruption because of ongoing dissonance or too much time away from the immersive scene, then the immersive state ends.

A quick picture of a monster, or a quick sketch to map out positioning can quickly clarify the scene, before returning to the immersive state.

For me, the difficulty with grid play is, it requires the attention to always be on the miniatures, and never in the immersive scene.

 

[Yaarel]

More a matter of familiarity & comfort with the rules. If you know the jargon cold and have mastered the non-obvious rules forward-and-backwards, then they're no barrier to immersion. OTOH, if you go to a new set of rules, boom, they're all obvious again.

Internalizing rules can reach a point where they become natural, second nature.

At the same time, some rules are more distracting than other rules. It depends on where the rules require the attention to be.

But, my personal experience is that I'm more likely to get an immersive feel from a new ed early on, before I have the rules down, the fact that the game world gets to be more of a mystery, less a known quantity, more than makes up for the obtrusiveness of unfamiliar rules.

Interesting point. A mysterious scene that requires someone to make narrative sense of it, probably does heighten immersion.

Nod. Games can be specialized for a particular tone, setting, flavor, or more generic. D&D, for instance, mostly 'does D&D' (classic D&D) so if that's what you sit down expecting, you're good. If, instead, you actually get the flavor of S&S or medieval fantasy or something, boom cognitive dissonance and pop goes the immersions.

Totally.

 

[cbwjm]

I think there are definitely some bonus actions that could done away with. Offhand attacks could be merged into the attack action, second wind and rage could have the bonus action requirement removed. It's not something that will happen unless homebrewed but I agree with Mearls that bonus actions aren't needed for the game.

 

[Wiseblood]

I dislike the action economy. Move action, standard action and bonus action and reaction are all broad and granular at the same time. Before action economy there were units of time often represented by jargon ie. Turns and rounds (I remember segments too but I don't know if they support my statement)


For what it's worth, I think six second rounds are worse. Six second rounds eclipse the existence of spells, magic and monsters as the most ridiculous rule D&D.

 

[mrpopstar]

I can't agree. Immersion is too personal an experience to definitively map to system qualities. I've heard a lot of folks complaining about their immersions, and there's vanishingly little consistency to it. Except for one commonality: there's something they don't like, and they want it removed as an option for everyone.

Narrative immersion in storytelling inspired narrative transportation theories in psychology. We can measure transportation into a narrative world by observing a failure to notice surroundings (passage of time or unfolding events), or other participatory responses that are shaped through absorption (strong emotions or desires to engage/communicate within the narrative). It has long been recognized as the key mechanism through which storytelling shapes us as human beings, and it seems quite obvious (only to me?) that system qualities which do anything but serve the narrative have the potential to challenge immersion if viewed through this understanding.

Hadn't thought about it that way. Interesting.

It's a very simple byproduct of language and its limitations.

For myself, immersion happens when I am reading a good book. There are moments when I see the scene so clearly, I am not even seeing the words on the page that are being read.

The same kind of experience can take place during a vivid gaming encounter. The scene becomes live.

Mainly, two things interfere with my immersion, because they call attention to something away from the scene.

Theater of mind helps immersion. By contrast, looking at a grid and counting off squares interferes.
• Looking at minis is a 3rd-person perspective, that conflicts with the 1st-person perspective of immersion.
• Rules that call too much attention to the grid positioning distract from the immersive scene.
• Counting squares is unnatural. In reallife, I never ‘count squares’ to walk somewhere. There are more natural ways to estimate distance.

Rules that lack natural language.
• Rules that are nonobvious and need to be looked up, interfere with immersion.
• Rules that have technical jargon, require obscure calculations, or similarly call attention to themselves.
• Rules that have a baked in flavor that disagrees with the flavor in play in the immersive scene.

I've been nosing around EN World and familiarizing myself with the "contentions of immersion," and it has stood out to me that immersion is something referenced in first-person terms. You mention some hugely successful reading experiences. Does it challenge your immersion when narratives are relayed in third-person perspective as opposed to first?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Narrative immersion in storytelling inspired narrative transportation theories in psychology.

I guess that'd be a jargon meaning w/in that discipline.
Obviously, not how it's used around here, though the parallels are obvious.

It's a very simple byproduct of language and its limitations.

You mean the ambiguity of natural language, or the shades of meaning - connotations - that words can take on? Both I suppose...

Before action economy there were units of time often represented by jargon ie. Turns and rounds (I remember segments too but I don't know if they support my statement)

Oh, there's always been 'action economy,' just like there've always been 'three pillars,' just no one was call'n 'em that yet.

Segments were, BTW, 6 seconds: 10 of em to the 1-min round. Turns were 10 rounds, so 10 min. Turns were used in exploration, and if a combat didn't take a number of rounds evenly divisible by 10, the remainder of that turn was considered to be spent binding wounds, cleaning weapons, repairing armor & the like - ie, in a short rest (just not called that, yet).

Everything new is old again.

For what it's worth, I think six second rounds are worse. Six second rounds eclipse the existence of spells, magic and monsters as the most ridiculous rule D&D.

Think of them as old-school segments.

 

[Yaarel]

I've been nosing around EN World and familiarizing myself with the "contentions of immersion," and it has stood out to me that immersion is something referenced in first-person terms. You mention some hugely successful reading experiences. Does it challenge your immersion when narratives are relayed in third-person perspective as opposed to first?

It is possible for a violinist to be ‘at one’ with the violin, or an athlete in ‘the zone’.

But when I say ‘immersion’, I specifically mean the ability to conjure the scene, sort of like watching a movie − but even better than a movie, because you are in the scene and can interact with the scene, and the scene is all around you. So by definition, it is first person.

Third person is something else.

Narrative immersion in storytelling inspired narrative transportation theories in psychology. We can measure transportation into a narrative world by observing a failure to notice surroundings (passage of time or unfolding events), or other participatory responses that are shaped through absorption (strong emotions or desires to engage/communicate within the narrative).

It has long been recognized as the key mechanism through which storytelling shapes us as human beings, and it seems quite obvious (only to me?) that system qualities which do anything but serve the narrative have the potential to challenge immersion if viewed through this understanding.

Heh, that reminds me. Having a great conversation, and navigating while driving, seem to require the same parts of the brain. A conversation is conducive to missing an exit.

 

[Yaarel]

About a hundred 15-minutes are in a day.
About a hundred 9-seconds are in a 15-minutes.



9 seconds makes a decent combat turn.
15 minutes makes a decent social/exploratory encounter.