Mike Mearls and "Action Economy"

One of the reasons for bonus actions is so that healers can do something else besides heal during. Don't a lot of players find just healing during their turn boring?

You hit somebody and then one of your buddies gets healed is (more than) a little creepy, but it does cover this issue: it wouldn't take much to rewrite the healing spells to be more like green flame blade.....now whether something like that should be done is a different story.
 

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When Mearls says it's a failure to have to think about the action economy, I suspect that to a large extent he means that the team want to avoid thinking about ways to mess with the action economy. There's no denying that 5e has a very specific action economy, but in the game as it's been designed so far, the available options to actually leverage that action economy, to bend and twist it to one side's advantage, have been kept reasonably limited and specific - and also universal, in that few if any of them are class-dependent. Anyone can take a bonus action, anyone can Ready an action, anyone can take a reaction.

Bonus actions are probably the slippery slope here, due to their specialised nature - different classes use them for different things, and some builds will struggle to find a use for them on a given turn while others will struggle to make do with just one.

Yeah I agree with MarkB, I suspect that's what he meant (and thank you for articulating the thought I was trying to zero in on).
 


You hit somebody and then one of your buddies gets healed is (more than) a little creepy, but it does cover this issue: it wouldn't take much to rewrite the healing spells to be more like green flame blade.....now whether something like that should be done is a different story.
Spells setting up a red mist or blood drinker effect where say each hit on a target restores the caster's bonus in hp to the striker would be fantastic.

Can see a small number of glowing orbs or spirits that leech out blood on any damage and whisk it to the attacker as a reward.
 

Considering this and other statements, I think it's time that Mike steps down and Jeremy Crawford it promoted to head of D&D.

Yeah. I mean, I could understand if he was saying that he didn't want the action economy to factor into explicit player choices, so maybe move away from things like Bonus Actions, Immediate Actions, Free Actions, Full round actions, etc. But that would be a conscious design decision for how the designers want the action economy to be reflected in the play of the game - you know, like the decisions and discussions that designers should be involved in.

THIS.

Sometimes mearls talks like he's never designed a game before.

I really don't get his point.

Also THIS.

To expand upon my point earlier, I understand that 5E has moved away from the very gamist 4E (that's not an insult folks, it was, and I loved it) and the much more gamist but less overtly so 3.5, with their "natural language" and "rulings not rules" approaches (among other things).

But fundamentally, they are making a game. It often feels like what the Designers talk about and what we play at the table are two different things. Like, this thing that they're looking at is not a game, and this thing we're playing is a game, and somehow the Designers are unaware of this thing we're playing, like a DM who just doesn't get why his players are "missing it."
 

Mike Mearls doesn't like bonus actions. There are a number of things in the game that I could see being done better without bonus actions, but also things that I have a hard time seeing as "balanceable" without bonus actions. For example, how do you get Cunning Action benefits without effectively creating the concept of a bonus action, even if you don't call it that?

While Mike thinks the designers should avoid the whole "action economy" aspect of things when considering designs, it's still an interesting problem to consider. Given several years of experience with the game-as-written, is there a reasonable way to revise the design that will help fix some of the systems that have hacky limits on them (such as Rage) by redoing how things interact with the action economy?


Basic player options they can take on their turn:
- Action
- Bonus Action (want to eliminate)
- Move
- Object interaction

Actions players can take on any turn:
- Reaction


However, how do you handle something like activating Rage? You don't want it to use up the player's full Action, and it doesn't belong in Move or Reaction. Although.. it does sort of relate to the free Object Interaction. Object Interaction is another trivial type action that you want to say that players are allowed to do for free, but the mechanics have to be able to define when the player can do it. What if we merge that with the Bonus Action?

Basic player options they can take on their turn:
- Action
- Trivial Action
- Move

Actions players can take on any turn:
- Reaction

I can see activating Rage to be similar to opening a door, or pulling out your sword. It's sort of a Bonus Action, but not quite, as we want to eliminate some of the other interactions with the Bonus Action framework.

Now expand:

Actions you can take:
- Attack: You can attack with a weapon you are holding. If you are holding two weapons you can attack with each of them.
-- Standard attack: A normal weapon attack.
-- Extra attack: You may make one additional Standard attack on the first Attack action you take each turn.
-- Sneak attack: Instead of making a Standard attack, you may make a Sneak attack, and add Sneak Attack bonus dice to the damage done. You may only do this once per turn.
-- Rage: While raging, you may add Rage bonus damage to all Standard attacks you make each turn.
-- Grapple: Instead of making a Standard attack, you may attempt to grapple an opponent.
- Dash: You may perform a Move action.
- Disengage: You may avoid opportunity attacks until the start of your next turn.
- Dodge: All attacks against you are made with disadvantage until the start of your next turn.
- Help: Aid another creature.
- Hide: You may attempt to hide.
- Ready: Prepare to use your reaction to perform an action.
- Search: You may attempt to search for hidden creatures.
- Use Object: Use an object.
- Cast a Spell: You may cast a spell. If you use this action twice on the same turn, one of the spells must be a cantrip.
- Special Action: Any specific action that a class, spell, or ability allows you to perform that is not listed above.


Some things are easy, such as Sneak Attack vs Rage attacks. But now we run into roadblocks: Spells, and combining actions. How do you Attack and Disengage on the same turn? (Cunning Action) How do you Dash and Cast a Spell? (Quicken Spell) How do you cast a spell (or do anything else) while manipulating a maintained spell? (Spiritual Weapon)

Things that are explicit bonus actions (Rage, Second Wind, etc) can be dropped in the Trivial Action category. However trying to do two different actions (with the second one perhaps from a limited list) pretty much has to say, "You can perform a second action.", which is pretty much a bonus action without the name.

And then you get into exclusions. For example, a Barbarian using Frenzy gets an extra attack as a bonus action. Disregarding the conflict with two weapon fighting, this means you can't just wrap it in as yet another extra attack (in the above list) because it also prevents use of, say, Cunning Action to allow you to Dodge at the same time, or Second Wind to gain a few hit points back. By making it a bonus action, you're explicitly preventing certain other actions from being taken.

Perhaps that balance isn't needed very often, but it's an important tool to the mechanics designer to allow balancing certain effects. And this is where we run into the action economy: Don't allow too many actions to be taken per turn; don't allow certain actions to be taken at the same time; sometimes allow more than one action to be done on the same turn.


Let's see if I can work out a framing for it.

• As part of your turn, you may perform a Primary Action, a Move Action, or a Trivial Action. These may be performed in any order, and components of each may be split up around any other actions you take.
• You may use a Reaction on any turn, either under defined circumstances, or as a default response, such as for opportunity attacks. You may use a Reaction once in between the start of any two of your turns.
• Some features may let you take an additional action as part of your Primary Action.

This makes it fairly generic. It allows for combinations that might be equivalent to taking two bonus actions (which wouldn't be possible under the current rules), but I don't think that's necessarily problematic.

Does framing it this way improve things?

Rogue
- Cunning Action: You may use Dash, Disengage, or Hide as additional actions on your turn.
- Sneak Attack: Instead of making a Standard attack, you may make a Sneak attack, and add Sneak Attack bonus dice to the damage done. You may only do this once per turn.

Barbarian
- Rage: Initiating a Rage is a Trivial Action.
- Rage: While raging, you may add Rage bonus damage to all Standard attacks you make each turn.
- Frenzy: You may take an additional Attack action each turn while you're raging.
- Eagle: You may Dash as an additional action on your turn.

Fighter
- Second Wind: You may use an additional action (or Trivial Action?) on your turn to recover health.
- Extra Attack: You may make one additional Standard attack on the first Attack action you take each turn.

Cleric
- Spiritual Weapon: You may use an additional action on your turn to cast this spell, and an additional action each following turn to manipulate it.

Sorcerer
- Quickened Spell: You may use an additional action to cast this spell.


Ehh.. Somewhat? It's only barely different from a bonus action in some regards. The main improvements are likely to just how the Attack action is framed and used, and that some things are opened up a bit more.

For example, as written, Spiritual Weapon could be manipulated to attack twice in one turn. That's more than what you could do before, but it is really a problem compared to making a normal melee attack plus a Spiritual Weapon attack? It seems like a restriction that doesn't provide any real benefit.


It seems a little bit simpler, as it's no longer a question of whether an action is a regular action or a bonus action, and having to figure out which is which when choosing what to do. That 'split' of attention is gone; all actions are actions, rather than some that are actions and some that are bonus actions, even if they do the same thing.

And it gives a little more flexibility in what you can do. For example, a Sorcerer casting a quickened spell doesn't automatically prevent you from casting a bonus action cantrip. And you don't have the conflict of figuring out which of the spells has to be quickened in order to use it.

And some actions can be dropped to Trivial Actions, which also absorbs the free Object Interaction space. These are things that shouldn't have to compete with regular actions in the first place, and that players often don't think of in terms of actions anyway (eg: activating Rage, or using Second Wind).


It's not a huge change, but it does get rid of a little potential friction in designing things, or in thinking about action economy. It's just Act or Move, with occasional Trivial additions or Reactions. The action economy interferes less with the design because there's no complicated interaction with different action types.


While I personally don't think it's a huge deal, I can see it being an annoying itch for someone who has to work with it constantly. And even if not a big deal, I can still see how it would be easier to deal with as a player or DM.
 

THIS.



Also THIS.

To expand upon my point earlier, I understand that 5E has moved away from the very gamist 4E (that's not an insult folks, it was, and I loved it) and the much more gamist but less overtly so 3.5, with their "natural language" and "rulings not rules" approaches (among other things).

But fundamentally, they are making a game. It often feels like what the Designers talk about and what we play at the table are two different things. Like, this thing that they're looking at is not a game, and this thing we're playing is a game, and somehow the Designers are unaware of this thing we're playing, like a DM who just doesn't get why his players are "missing it."

And I think all four of you (the other three being I think [MENTION=6854936]Sorcerers Apprentice[/MENTION], [MENTION=913]Schmoe[/MENTION], and [MENTION=6848185]CubicsRube[/MENTION]) have misinterpreted what he said. Read MarkB's post.

This is the sentence, "If this phrase [action economy] comes up as part of the design process, we have probably done something wrong. If we're thinking of actions as an economic resource that are being spent, I think we've made the game too complicated."

This is how I read that sentence, "If the phrase action economy comes up as part of the design process, we have probably come dangerously close to messing with a balanced element of the game that's working well. If we're thinking of actions as an economic resources that are being spent such that we are about to change what it's spent on, I think we've made the game too complicated and run the risk of messing up what was working well."

I don't think he's referring to what the players are thinking about the action economy (he never mentions players). I think he's thinking about the designers playing around with the existing action economy (he does refer to designer, and that's who "we" and "we're" are referring to in that sentence). By doing things that, for example, effectively expand the number of actions a PC can take on a turn or a round, which can mess with what they can do with certain feats or multiclass levels or combinations like dual wielding or sneak attack or smites or bonus actions.

Assuming that's what he means, he's right. Stay away from messing with the existing action economy. It works well, and as MarkB said, it's currently universal and limited and specific. It's the one place in the rules where, if you push that envelope, deeply unexpected results can happen fundamentally changing the entire feel of the game. It's the one place where, if you screw it up, a single combat can go from 5 minutes to 35 minutes for a group, and cascade effects can happen.

Whatever gamist tactical feel you prefer, it can be done within the existing action economy. There is no reason for the designers to bring it up as part of changing it or expanding it in some way.
 
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And I think all four of you (@shidaku, [MENTION=6854936]Sorcerers Apprentice[/MENTION], [MENTION=913]Schmoe[/MENTION], and [MENTION=6848185]CubicsRube[/MENTION]) have misinterpreted what he said. Read MarkB's post.

This is the sentence, "If this phrase [action economy] comes up as part of the design process, we have probably done something wrong. If we're thinking of actions as an economic resource that are being spent, I think we've made the game too complicated."

This is how I read that sentence, "If the phrase action economy comes up as part of the design process, we have probably come dangerously close to messing with a balanced element of the game that's working well. If we're thinking of actions as an economic resources that are being spent such that we are about to change what it's spent on, I think we've made the game too complicated and run the risk of messing up what was working well."

I don't think he's referring to what the players are thinking about the action economy (he never mentions players). I think he's thinking about the designers playing around with the existing action economy (he does refer to designer, and that's who "we" and "we're" are referring to in that sentence). By doing things that, for example, effectively expand the number of actions a PC can take on a turn or a round, which can mess with what they can do with certain feats or multiclass levels or combinations like dual wielding or sneak attack or smites or bonus actions.

Assuming that's what he means, he's right. Stay away from messing with the existing action economy. It works well, and as MarkB said, it's currently universal and limited and specific. It's the one place in the rules where, if you push that envelope, deeply unexpected results can happen fundamentally changing the entire feel of the game. It's the one place where, if you screw it up, a single combat can go from 5 minutes to 35 minutes for a group, and cascade effects can happen.

Whatever gamist tactical feel you prefer, it can be done within the existing action economy. There is no reason for the designers to bring it up as part of changing it or expanding it in some way.

Personally I think you and MarkB are reading too much of what you believe he is saying into it.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm taking the statement at face value. The value of which to me is:
Mearls said:
"If this phrase [action economy] comes up as part of the design process, we have probably done something wrong."
We don't want to talk about this "action economy" thing the people who play our game talk about.
-Pretty straight forward here. But seems to imply a fairly strange understanding of game design.
Mearls said:
"If we're thinking of actions as an economic resource that are being spent, I think we've made the game too complicated."
This to me just sounds like ignorance about game design. There's no other way to put it. Actions are an economic resource within the game. If they don't like that well...maybe they shouldn't make games? Because I really don't know how you make a game that isn't a free-for-all Calvinball that doesn't have some form of action economy and resource management.

If you believe there are things Mearls left unsaid, I would wager you tweet him to clarify, rather than injecting your own "what he really meant was...."
 

Personally I think you and MarkB are reading too much of what you believe he is saying into it.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm taking the statement at face value.

No you're not. You read into it a whole lot as well. For example:

The value of which to me is:

We don't want to talk about this "action economy" thing the people who play our game talk about.

He never once says or implies ANYTHING about what "the people who play our game talk about."

In fact, that's a massive assumption. That they're reading boards like this one (they do not appear to do that much anymore). That they're listening to an extremely small number of people who talk about policy-wonk level stuff like "action economies" (even here that phrase comes up in an extreme minority of posts). The overwhelming majority of things people talk about concerning this game have nothing to do with that sort of stuff. So yeah, you've read a great deal into his statement...as if he's talking about you.

-Pretty straight forward here. But seems to imply a fairly strange understanding of game design.

There is nothing straight forward about that huge assumption you made.

This to me just sounds like ignorance about game design. There's no other way to put it.

Well, what's your experience with game design relative to his? Ignorance tends to come from lack of experience. He has a tremendous amount. Do you? That's not to say you can't comment on it...but when you question essentially his experience (which is what goes into ignorance) then you're implying you lack that ignorance, which would mean you have equal or superior experience. Do you?

Actions are an economic resource within the game. If they don't like that well...maybe they shouldn't make games? Because I really don't know how you make a game that isn't a free-for-all Calvinball that doesn't have some form of action economy and resource management.

If the way you're interpreting the statement leads you to believe it makes no sense, and the way I interpret it makes sense, then isn't it reasonable to conclude you have possibly misinterpreted it? I mean, we all know Mike Mearls is aware action economies in the game, as he's spoken about it before. So he must not mean what you think he means (that they are not there).

If you believe there are things Mearls left unsaid, I would wager you tweet him to clarify, rather than injecting your own "what he really meant was...."

Maybe take your own advice rather than assume he's commenting on the sorts of things YOU say on boards concerning action economies?

But sure, I will Tweet him.
 

Given some of the responses here, I think it's important to note that Mike was speaking in terms of design, not play. Players will often need to think of things in terms of action economy (though the less you need to think in that way, the better). However the designers should not fall into the trap of building the action economy. (Those who are in charge of balancing the game, like Jeremy Crawford, are likely to put more emphasis on that, but their job isn't the same as design.)

The designer should be focusing more on what the class/subclass/monster/whatever can do, not the action economy details of how it fits in with everything else. You can't always get away from it (eg: all the bonus action limitations on expanding Rogue), but it shouldn't be the focus of the design, because that leads to designing a bunch of mechanics rather than a class, where the most important point is making something that lets a player feel like they're their character.

So from the designer's perspective, yes, he's absolutely right. Based on the goals they've set for crafting 5E, the designers should be focused first and foremost on the "thematic" side of things, and should not be building for the sake of mechanics. That's not the same as saying that the action economy doesn't exist, or that it's not important in some aspects of gameplay, or that it's not important to other departments at WotC.

On the other hand, that's probably a bit of a weakness as well. Since the designers are trying to avoid the hard mechanics as much as possible when doing the design, they're likely to build stuff that's difficult to describe without something like, say, bonus actions. And then they have to justify it, and the mechanics section has to figure out how to fit it in, and then years down the line the designers realize that what they jury-rigged back in the day becomes something that trips them up now that so much more is hanging from those ropes.

So it's a double-edged sword. If they focus too much on the mechanics, the game becomes something that loses much of its flavor. If they don't truly consider the mechanics enough, though, they build something that doesn't quite fit right, and they have to work around from then on.

I think it should be a both-and approach.
 

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