D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

[Staffan]

I don't think there's much reason to think that WotC would increase its sales - perhaps not even in absolute terms, let alone after outlay - by publishing multiple, different versions of D&D.

Not so much different versions of D&D no, but probably by doing different RPGs – e.g. a modern, paranormal, and/or sci-fi game. That would almost certainly bring more sales in absolute terms, but likely not enough to justify the expense.

If I was a 5e designer I'd be pretty pleased with my work. Like anything done in the context of commercial employment, it's not a pure expression of any designer's vision. But it's a cleverly-designed game: the integration of significant elements of 4e D&D while producing a game that users can experience both as a descendant of 3E D&D and a descendent of AD&D.

I'd be very proud of 5.0 as a whole, but there would definitely be aspects of it I wouldn't be happy with. CR for monsters is off, and many monsters have super-boring design (bag of hit points). There are classes and subclasses that aren't pulling their weight, like monks in general and elemental monks in particular. The sorcerer doesn't really have any strong mechanical identity that justifies their existence alongside neo-Vancian wizards – this one is definitely linked to deadlines, as the playtest had a very different sorcerer class for quite some time and when it got booed they didn't have time to design something clever. The downtime rules are anemic and near non-existent. There's very little support for PCs crafting their own items.

Some of these aspects have been fixed in 5.5, so clearly the designers identified them as problem areas. I don't have it myself, but I understand that many under-CRed monsters got a boost to where they were supposed to be, and many monsters have gotten some more interesting abilities. Not to 4e/Draw Steel/Flee, Mortals! levels, but still a little something something. Monks got a shot in the arm, and sorcerers got more juice in their subclasses to reflect their origins, at the same time as wizards got some other things reflecting their focus on book-learnin'. You got bastions for downtime.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

Have you noticed that each time you are presented with evidence or example of why a PC absolutely could & probably should be aware of how their recovery works in relation to the 5mwd you drag out a different mechanical element in a new context and declare victory? It's quite the pattern. Even if the PCs have no concept of time & have just decided they plan to rest until recovered, it's not going to take too many times before they notice the obvious timeframe for "until rested".

This has progressed all the way from individual posters providing examples of being able to self gauge their workout recovery needs and specifical forces teams posters apparently served with being trained to remember/recognize medically and combat relevant details in real time being dismissed on the grounds that those posters class levels and exact hp are not knowable that poster can't judge their"risk of dying in a fight".


You have done an admirable job of demonstrating why sometimes the rules design needs to flatly ignore the impossible quantum goalpost on roller skates desired by theater geeks and write some parts of the ruleset RAW+RAI from somewhere well into the wargamer side of the spectrum just so folks can actually play the game rather than being flogged by some unknowable eldritch horror from beyond the veil. It's even led me to this fascinating study. That's not to say that there aren't areas where the reverse is true, just that it tends to be a lower bar for the needs of the game to be accepted under those conditions when wargaming is the wrong mindset for something like diplomancy or whatever.

So you went around cherry picking replies to me but ignoring my responses and arguments, so you can pretend I got "totally owned". If you did not want to actually talk to me, you could just not.

 

[tetrasodium]

So you went around cherry picking replies to me but ignoring my responses and arguments, so you can pretend I got "totally owned". If you did not want to actually talk to me, you could just not.

"Totally owned"? That's not a phrase I've seen anyone use in the discussion... are you perhaps attributing a comment someone else made elsewhere to me?

I responded to your replies as you made them. You ignored all of the reasons that myself and other posters gave for why the 1x/24 hours rule subsection you initially raised as a solution and just kept blaming players/gms for not doing better.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

More often, yes. They felt more real as they had to be done practically, instead of being impossibly floaty weightless CGI slop. There also were less of them, as using practical effects was more expensive.

I am laughing in all the times I have seen Schwarzenegger, Stallone, Lee, Reeves or Willis mow down literal hundreds of enemies without a single scratch.

Then you have time pressure. And the GM should provide these instead of blaming the players for wanting to take a rest.
My point was never that this waiting to rest is thing that should constantly be happening, my issue was with you blaming the players for what is a rule and GMing issue.

As I have said, the time pressure is often unspoken and obvious to anyone who is not an idiot or deliberatelly refuses to treat the world as the world. Hell, such things as "enemeis will call for backup and restaff the rooms you cleared" and "someone else may show up and steal your treasure" alone are unspoken time pressure on every enemy dungeon. Even "the longer we have this issue unsolved, more people will suffer and die" applies here, that is bloody obvious.

And if you want to know what GM should really do when players propose 5 Minutes 32 hours rest adventuring day? Say "no" and move on. If they try to argue, say "rules disputes will be handled between session, my ruling right now is still "no"." I am sorry if DM's, you have seen beign abused by players to let them exploit rules in such a way, had no backbone.

 

[overgeeked]

I'd love to run a bunch of 5e-only gamers through 2e style encounters, such as warbands of 6d10 goblins. (From memory. I vaguely remember some goblin encounters were in lots of d100s)

I did exactly that. The players lost their minds. They couldn’t comprehend it. They kept trying to figure out how they could charge and wipe them out. They glitched out because they assumed everything in the world was prepackaged as a level-appropriate and balanced combat encounter. They accused me of cheating and got mad. It was hilarious.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

And if you want to know what GM should really do when players propose 5 Minutes 32 hours rest adventuring day? Say "no" and move on. If they try to argue, say "rules disputes will be handled between session, my ruling right now is still "no"." I am sorry if DM's, you have seen beign abused by players to let them exploit rules in such a way, had no backbone.

Yeah, so blatant railroading; that is terrible GMing. GM should merely remind the players of the time pressure, what might happen if they wait those 32 hours, but respect the decision of the players. Your attitude is very antagonistic. The GM should create the time pressure, the players should consider whether risking the situation worsening in order to get a full refresh is worth it, and then we play. When done properly it is perfectly valid strategic decision point. Do we push on now, with limited resources, or do we regroup, but also give the enemy time to further their plans? No right or wrong answers, no antagonism, no one being called TFG.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I'd love to run a bunch of 5e-only gamers through 2e style encounters, such as warbands of 6d10 goblins. (From memory. I vaguely remember some goblin encounters were in lots of d100s)

I did that. Some of the characters still feel bad for basically massacring the whole tribe of goblins...

And yeah, I sometimes have fights with a lot of low level enemies (usually with some tougher ones.) It however is relatively easy to wipe such with AoE spells. I probably should have bigger table and bigger battlemat though, as spread out ranged enemies would be a different thing. Than again, eldritch blast and magic missile are pretty decent ways to deal with such too. I think melee focused martials would be struggling in such a situation though.

 

[Parmandur]

I did that. Some of the characters still feel bad for basically massacring the whole tribe of goblins...

And yeah, I sometimes have fights with a lot of low level enemies (usually with some tougher ones.) It however is relatively easy to wipe such with AoE spells. I probably should have bigger table and bigger battlemat though, as spread out ranged enemies would be a different thing. Than again, eldritch blast and magic missile are pretty decent ways to deal with such too. I think melee focused martials would be struggling in such a situation though.

Bolded part: that's why it is effective to spread them across a few rooms.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

Yeah, so blatant railroading; that is terrible GMing.

Saying no to your players is not railroading. "No" is as much a tool in DM's arsenal, as is "yes", "yes and", "yes but", "no but" and "no and"

 

[bedir than]

Sorry, but I still do not see the class levels, so you do not know if you are taking challenges appriopriate for your abilities; I do not see exact number of hit points, so you know how much risk of dying next fight is going to put you at and whenever you need to recover; I do not see which of your abilities require 8 hours of sleep, and which ones jus an 1 hour nap. Whatever you can know about your physical state is not conveyed through any sort of game mechanics. I do not see a reason why should it be different for characters existing within the world of the game. Sure they can give you equivalent of things you listed....no wait, they cannot, most of them do not have a magic item scanning them nor an overseeing organization keeping track of their health. Just like irl a vast majority of people in real world is not aware of their exact health, ofter under or overestimaging their abilities or endurance. FFS, look no further than all those dudes claiming they can beat Serena Williams in her area of expertise just because they believe a level 1 dude is inherently superior to a high level woman.

I'm sorry, I could get more detailed, but I do feel at this point the nitpicking is going to continue no matter how thoroughly I type out my years of experience.
Class and levels are known, again, simply. I was a sigint person with some cross training. I had a rank that recognized my capability. They knew what language I spoke and at what level of proficiency.
Rest and breaks are hard coded into military experience so much that leadership ensures that it happens and that I learned to take short rests even next to firing automatic weapons. I short rested on helicopters. It's folly to think that real people don't know how necessary rests are to living.

But again, I could go on. it would be useless.