Mike Mearls on D&D Psionics: Should Psionic Flavor Be Altered?

WotC's Mike Mearls has been asking for opinions on how psionics should be treated in D&D 5th Edition. I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that he'd hinted that he might be working on something, and this pretty much seals the deal. He asked yesterday "Agree/Disagree: The flavor around psionics needs to be altered to allow it to blend more smoothly into a traditional fantasy setting", and then followed up with some more comments today.

"Thanks for all the replies! Theoretically, were I working on psionics, I'd try to set some high bars for the execution. Such as - no psionic power duplicates a spell, and vice versa. Psionics uses a distinct mechanic, so no spell slots. One thing that might be controversial - I really don't like the scientific terminology, like psychokinesis, etc. But I think a psionicist should be exotic and weird, and drawing on/tied to something unsettling on a cosmic scale.... [but]... I think the source of psi would be pretty far from the realm of making pacts. IMO, old one = vestige from 3e's Tome of Magic.

One final note - Dark Sun is, IMO, a pretty good example of what happens to a D&D setting when psionic energy reaches its peak. Not that the rules would require it, but I think it's an interesting idea to illustrate psi's relationship to magic on a cosmic level."

 

[Von Ether]

And, typically, Psionics has been presented as a whole deal - "here is how you create a psionic campaign" style books. I have zero interest in a psionic campaign.

Then WotC's 3.X psionics book was for you. They specifically designed it to not overshadow magic and divine magics, pretty much neutering the idea of a WotC psionics campaign.

While I like the way Eberron handled psionics, which was a very flexible "How much you deal with a certain psionic race is about how much psioinics you'll see in your game." I'd love the option of a truly stand-alone system that let me run a whole campaign.

 

[Hussar]

Then WotC's 3.X psionics book was for you. They specifically designed it to not overshadow magic and divine magics, pretty much neutering the idea of a WotC psionics campaign.

While I like the way Eberron handled psionics, which was a very flexible "How much you deal with a certain psionic race is about how much psioinics you'll see in your game." I'd love the option of a truly stand-alone system that let me run a whole campaign.

Complete Psionic was 160 pages long. That's about 130 pages longer than I want for any psionic rules.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Let's be fair, though: less than half of that was new classes, feats & powers, and I don't think it included any new mechanics. All that stuff was set up in the XPH. Even combined with the XPH, though, and excluding ITS non-mechanical content, you're talking about 6 base classes, a dozen or so PrCls, the feats & powers of a complete Psi system for under 120 pages (probably). I don't think that's excessive at all for that amount of content.

Add Dragon #341 and Hyperconsicous for giggles...and that's still less than was printed supporting the PHB wizards alone.

 

[Staffan]

Complete Psionic was 160 pages long. That's about 130 pages longer than I want for any psionic rules.

The PHB has 28 pages of arcane-casting classes (counting only the bits of the fighter and rogue dedicated to their casting sub-class) and 26 pages of divine-casting classes. It also has 83 pages of spells (including the spell lists). If psionics is to be the equal of arcane or divine magic, it should probably have a similar page count - lowballing it with 45 pages of psionic spells/powers (to be honest it would probably need more, because arcane and divine magic share a lot of spells, so a list that only has the arcane spells would run about 60 pages I guess) + 25 pages of class material gives 70 pages of material, plus some rules on how psionics work, some psionic items, psionic monsters, DM advice on how to use psionics in your own setting and what role it plays (if any) in existing ones. That should be a minimum of 128 pages.

IMO, if they don't want to dedicate that amount of effort to a proper set of psionic rules, they shouldn't even bother. A "storm sorcerer" version of psionics won't make anyone happy.

 

[Hussar]

Let's be fair, though: less than half of that was new classes, feats & powers, and I don't think it included any new mechanics. All that stuff was set up in the XPH. Even combined with the XPH, though, and excluding ITS non-mechanical content, you're talking about 6 base classes, a dozen or so PrCls, the feats & powers of a complete Psi system for under 120 pages (probably). I don't think that's excessive at all for that amount of content.

Add Dragon #341 and Hyperconsicous for giggles...and that's still less than was printed supporting the PHB wizards alone.

Ah, but, see, I didn't use splats in 3e. I really didn't. My 3e collection contains zero splat books. So, for me, the only print support wizards got in my campaigns was the PHB.

A "storm sorcerer" version of psionics won't make anyone happy.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=6652355#ixzz3eSSgQnaQ

It would make me perfectly content.

 

[Remathilis]

Ah, but, see, I didn't use splats in 3e. I really didn't. My 3e collection contains zero splat books. So, for me, the only print support wizards got in my campaigns was the PHB.

Then, if I may be so blunt, you're not the target audience.

5e is proving itself to be spat-adversarial, so if Mearls and co are going to expand the game to include a new type of magic, it behooves them to give it strong initial support. I want a psionic class, psionic subclasses, psionic feats, a full list of new powers, and psionic monsters to boot. Give me some psionic items as well. Because WotC's going to (probably) only take one bite at this apple, there will be no Complete Psionics, or Psionic Power, or The Will & the Way, so those psionic rules have to give me years of use, and one psionic sorcerer subclass isn't going to cut that.

Sorry to pick my preferences over yours, but I would rather a ruleset robust and complete for the people who actually want psionics than some one-and-done subclass you MIGHT include IF you decide to allow things beyond the PHB.

 

[steeldragons]

Hey look, I want "serious" and "robust" and "complete" psionics as much as the next guy...moreso, probably, than many since my homebrew world actually has psychics and psychic organizations in it...[thus why I don't just want to see "Psi in Dark Sun"]

But I don't really want, nor see a need for, a whole separate 1/2-PHB book of over 100 pages.

The "spells list" point is well taken, and sure, maybe we need 40-50 pages of psionic powers descriptions...assuming at least some of the powers will not be the same as existing spells...and in those cases, is not the point of the PHB and design philosophy of 5e (in general) to have that core "root" on which to "add to/build on?" I would EXPECT and WANT to see powers listed to say "As the X level Y-class spell. See page xxx in the PHB." rather than space and page count to just reprint the same description.

6 distinct classes? That's not really necessary or 5e's mode.

Let's take a walk through a hypothetical Psionics Manual, shall we? Let's.

Skip the covers. I'm going ot presume a soft-bound supplemental type manual. But they could go full hard-cover too. So, either way, you have 4 "pages" count there for inside/outside front and inside/outside rear cover. We're not going to be counting those. We're going to look at "content", so just keep those 4 additional plates in the back of your head.

6 pages for "white" pages, printing info, table of contents, etc...

4pp: What are [might be] Psionics? What might they be? Who has them? How can you use them in a game/campaign/setting?

NOTE: NONE OF THIS SECTION NEEDS/SHOULD BE PRESCRIPTIVE! Sorry branding managers. [No, I'm really not.] EVERYTHING in this section should be "Is it...?" "These individuals might be...?" "Could Psionics be from...?" "Psychic powers may be caused by..." NOTHING MORE!

I mean, come on. If I can come up with a half dozen possibilities in an afternoon, you guys ["professional game designers"] should be able to come up with at least that many to present without crucifying psionics with "One Origin to Brand Them All."

no more than 4 pp: Psionic Player Race options (whether innate or inclined towards). No more than 2 or 3 races or sub-races to existing PHB races. Maybe: Thri-Keen (throw Dark Sun a bone, as it is likely to be mentioned throughout this manual), Dwarf Subrace: Grey Dwarf, what were those variant humans, Ilumati or something? The guys with the glowing heads. Where were they from? But them. Maaaybe a Gold -oo! Or GEM!- Dragonborn variant...psionic in lieu of a breath weapon or whatever. That's it! That's plenty to add to an already nearing-bloated race list.

Don't need Maenads (nothing more than alt. humans), don't need Dromites (already have an insect race), don't need -what was that other ridiculous thing?-...oh yeah, "Half-Giants" (aside from an immersion breaking biological impossibility, where/how would having giant-blood make you psychically aware/powerful? Not a lot of psionic giants running around in D&D that I've ever seen/heard of. Just all "different for the sake of different" and/or "need something else so we can have another Large race"). They are all just corner-case/fringe bloat.

Not to mention, once Psionics are introduced into the system, it is trivially easy for 5e to ADD more races (or classes/subclasses), I'm thinking predominantly setting-specific material, at some later/other supplements or, as we do now, fan-creations.

6 pp: Psion/Psionicist: Telepath, Telekinetic, Seer, Metabolic, Porter.
3 pp: Fighter Subclass: Psychic Warrior. Monk Subclass: Soulknife. ...ok, fine, Cleric [or Bard? or Druid?!] Subclass/Domain: Ardent.
1-3 pages: Wild Talent Feat. Incorporating Wild/Random Psionics in your Campaign.

A dozen and a half pages, tops, on player class/race choices.

1 pg: Using Psionics in a "standand" game/combat.
1 pg: Psionic/Mental/"It's all in Your Head" Combat: How to play it. If you can't get this on 1 page, it has no business being in the game.

Options:
1 pg: Sorcerer Subclass Variant/Sidebar [1/2 page]: "Simple/Easy-Use Psionic" Sorcerer.
1/2 pg: Psionics & Multi-classing
4 pp: new Psionic Feats.
2-4 pp (total): Variant way of using psionics: PP, if that's not default, or "Slots", if that's not default. Psionics as ability/skill check? Variant way of playing Psi-Combat? Whatever it turns out to be, if you can't cover them in 1/2-1 page each, they don't need to be there.

Should be cover-able in 5pp: Discussion on the Planes. Ethereal, Astral, Far Realms. Psionic Travel. "Psychic Combat" on. Psionic risks of.
Sidebar/Alt. Planar Variant: Plane of Dreams.

Let's say, for arguments' sake, we have -at this point here- roughly 32 pages. Following what we've seen of the design/layout of 5e books thus far, we can pretty much guarantee an additional 16 pages worth of art and layout/white space. That brings up to a lovely little 48 pp manual. This is, of course, the most malleable area for spacing.

Now, powers, as noted...let's be generous and say 50 pp will be necessary, though I struggle to see how that would be possible unless you ARE reprinting all of the psionic powers-with-spell-equivalents...but be that as it may. We'll just say 50 (we could take this to include art, as well).

Still brings us in, just under/kissing 100 pp. Now, obviously, if they go one direction or another on the amount of art [presuming layout will be in keeping with the rest of the line] and this could be moderately to significantly closer to 75-80...or could expand well above 100 [with primarily "wasted"/padded space, imo].

SO, yeah...a "not more than 1/3 of the PHB/DMG" is more than sufficient, imho, to get a solid "Bringing Psionics into 5e" manual in our hands, with significant and usable options -a smattering of races and enough classes to cover the major archetypes- without going all bloaty/crazy/"everything psi that ever was."

Is there anything seriously "pressing", that I missed/didn't remember, for introducing/including psionics ...into 5e in a usable form? [and this last is crucial to remember/think instead of just, "But I like/want X from Y edition, cuz mememe!" Does this give you enough to get you rolling with psionics in your 5e game?]

 

[Sadrik]

Then, if I may be so blunt, you're not the target audience.

Sorry to pick my preferences over yours, but I would rather a ruleset robust and complete for the people who actually want psionics than some one-and-done subclass you MIGHT include IF you decide to allow things beyond the PHB.

There are lots like Hussar and I though. I see no problem with having options for both our crowds. I want a simple add on, something akin to a sub-class. You want a whole caster class and new add on sub-classes, new unique spell (power) system, new psi feats, new psi magic items; a whole slew of new options. That would make you and many others happy I am sure. Though not everyone. I would like a sorcerer origin and maybe a monk subclass. Perhaps some new spells and magic items and feats. that would make me happy.

 

[Sadrik]

Sorcerous Origin: Psionic Talent
Level 1: Language: Telepathy, Select telepathic or telekinetic: your damage spells do psychic damage or force damage and not their listed damage type and gain Psychic damage resistance or Force damage resistance. Mental Defense: gain Int and Wis save proficiency. Added spells dependent on psion type.
Level 3: Metamagic change for this origin: Subtle spell metamagic costs 0 sorcery points to use.
Level 6: Mental Attack: Add your Int, Wis, or Cha to your damage rolls, even non-spell attacks.
Level 14: Eschew components
Level 18: Cast higher than 5th level spells with sorcery points

New Metamagic option:
Chromatic Spell: costs 2 sorcery point: deal damage of a different type for the spell.

 

[Remathilis]

There are lots like Hussar and I though. I see no problem with having options for both our crowds. I want a simple add on, something akin to a sub-class. You want a whole caster class and new add on sub-classes, new unique spell (power) system, new psi feats, new psi magic items; a whole slew of new options. That would make you and many others happy I am sure. Though not everyone. I would like a sorcerer origin and maybe a monk subclass. Perhaps some new spells and magic items and feats. that would make me happy.

The only way I see this working is if the sorcerer subclass was done as a UA or separate download while full psionics got its own separate release. I can't imagine you, Hussar, or anyone else would be a $40, 130 page rule book on psionics and then only use the last 3 pages of it ever for its sorcerer psion subclass. Odds are, you just won't buy the book, which makes it no different than not having it in the first place. I'm still not sure WotC has the manpower to do psionics once, let alone twice.