Mike Mearls on D&D Psionics: Should Psionic Flavor Be Altered?

WotC's Mike Mearls has been asking for opinions on how psionics should be treated in D&D 5th Edition. I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that he'd hinted that he might be working on something, and this pretty much seals the deal. He asked yesterday "Agree/Disagree: The flavor around psionics needs to be altered to allow it to blend more smoothly into a traditional fantasy setting", and then followed up with some more comments today.

"Thanks for all the replies! Theoretically, were I working on psionics, I'd try to set some high bars for the execution. Such as - no psionic power duplicates a spell, and vice versa. Psionics uses a distinct mechanic, so no spell slots. One thing that might be controversial - I really don't like the scientific terminology, like psychokinesis, etc. But I think a psionicist should be exotic and weird, and drawing on/tied to something unsettling on a cosmic scale.... [but]... I think the source of psi would be pretty far from the realm of making pacts. IMO, old one = vestige from 3e's Tome of Magic.

One final note - Dark Sun is, IMO, a pretty good example of what happens to a D&D setting when psionic energy reaches its peak. Not that the rules would require it, but I think it's an interesting idea to illustrate psi's relationship to magic on a cosmic level."

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'd like it, but it could go either way and it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.

 

[steeldragons]

5e Psychic Steel Dragon style

So...here's this.

Someone use it and see how it goes.


Ya know...and then let us know.

 

[SkidAce]

So psionics is not supernatural in any way?

Methinks in your rush to be snarky, you missed the point completely.



So it's magic. It's wonderous supernatural wish-granting. It may or may not be "arcane" (using knowledge) or "divine" (gaining access through a mediator), but it's magic all the same. It may be magic like a tiefling's inherent magic or magic like an elemental monk's magic - it might involve casting a spell. It might be magic like a monk's agelessness or a paladin's lay on hands - it might just be a thing you can do.

Trying to argue there's some big distinction between "psionics" and "magic" isn't the most useful talking point because psionics is clearly magic, it just might not be the same flavor of magic that sorcerers and clerics use. To figure out how like or unlike them it is, it's useful to start with something like "Do they cast spells, meaning, does using a power for them involve a moment of concentration and a word, gesture, and/or some catalyst?"

In the example he gave, and in the mind pf those who like the "science sounding names", it is not magic. Its an advanced ability unlocked by brain or body power. Maybe a magic person can fly, and a psionic person can fly...but that doesn't mean they are both magic (or both psionic for that matter).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

A bird and a plane both fly, but use entirely different methods to do so.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Semantics aside, what are the distinguishing features of psionics that set it apart from "spellcasting magic?" As others have pointed out, there is not a lot of room to have it do things that spellcasting magic can't do, because spellcasting magic can do just about anything. But psionics could do certain things better, or in different ways.

Well, one point: is it actually different from spellcasting mechanically? Does actually using a psionic power entail a moment of concentration and any of the following: a word, an action, or some catalyst material?

There's examples that do. 3e psionics. 4e psioincs. Do we change it so it doesn't and thus doesn't use the spellcasting mechanic? Or do we use the spellcasting mechanic and say that a psionic class does this differently somehow?

I would say the distinguishing traits of psionics should be:
No external tools, ingredients, or actions. Using psionics is a purely mental activity. You can do it--at full power--while chained, gagged, and naked. (This means none of the New Age crystals-and-chakra stuff.)

Okay, so it doesn't use components. Can we use spellcasting mechanics and say that psions get some feature/ability to ignore components? There's certainly precedence for this in 5e already (check out the gith races). Or do we need/want a whole new mechanic?

Psionics does not create free-standing effects. It does not summon creatures or create objects, and any ongoing psionic effect requires concentration. There is no such thing as a "psionic item."

....sounds like you're not a fan of 3e psionics. Fair enough. But this is mostly an aesthetic point, not a mechanical treatment - it doesn't speak to what the character actually does to make the psionics happen.

[*]Psionics is not dispellable. Not only do dispel magic, counterspell, antimagic field, and the like not work, but there are no psionic equivalents of those things. If you want to stop a psion from doing something, you have to target the effect, not the psionics; for example, physically holding still an object that the psion is trying to move with telekinesis.

More points for not using spellcasting, but there are magical effects that don't rely on spellcasting in 5e already (the aforementioned monk's agelessness). Is it always on or does it require some action to do? If it requires some action, can the action be interrupted? Can concentration be broken? Or is psionics "unstoppable," without counter-measures? This could be a pretty rich vein to mine in how it's different from spellcasting, and though we'd need to be careful with the effects we could grant, it could be pretty deep.

Psionics ignores physical barriers. Where psionics is concerned, there is no difference between "line of sight" and "line of effect." A wall of force blocks spells, but psionics can go right through it. Furthermore, most psionic powers can be used "over the wire" of a scrying effect, either magical or psionic.

Potentially mechanically problematic, but possible with tight control of the effects psionics is capable of. Does that mean that I can't charm someone I know is behind a door?

Psionics can be developed by non-specialists. Someone with the Wild Talent feat (I assume this will be a feat) has access to the same array of powers as a full psion. The psion can just put a lot more oomph behind those powers, and can master a greater number of them.

A skill-like system would also satisfy that - anyone can use Insight, but a psion can augment their Insight check to do things like read minds or whatever.

Psionics can't compete with magic in raw power. Psionics ignores a lot of the restrictions and countermeasures that magic-wielders have to deal with; the flip side is that magic-wielders pack a harder punch. Put a psion and a wizard of the same level in an arena, and the wizard will usually trounce the psion.

Another aesthetic point, not really relevant to if it's spellcasting or some other mechanic.

But it seems on the whole like you'd want psionics to NOT be spellcasting. Okay.

What does it look like in the world when a psion uses an ability? Do they activate it with an action or is it always on? Is it something that must be concentrated on? Maybe it varies with the kind of ability used?

In the example he gave, and in the mind pf those who like the "science sounding names", it is not magic. Its an advanced ability unlocked by brain or body power. Maybe a magic person can fly, and a psionic person can fly...but that doesn't mean they are both magic (or both psionic for that matter).

If a human being flies due purely to their own will, it's pretty clearly magical. It might be planar energies or breaking the laws of physics or a pact with a demon or the granted ability of a god or just thinking happy thoughts - that's still magical, it's still magic, it's clearly not natural.

It could also be nanobots or anti-grav boots or jetpacks, and it would still be pretty magical, though I'd probably want different mechanics to embody that (like the current magic item mechanics!).

It sounds like when people say "it's not magic" what they mostly mean is "it's not like what a wizard or a cleric does" but neither is a bear totem barbarian's ability to carry twice their normal load, but that's still magical, it just doesn't involve casting a spell. "Magic" in D&D isn't just what wizards or clerics do.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If a human being flies due purely to their own will, it's pretty clearly magical. It might be planar energies or breaking the laws of physics or a pact with a demon or the granted ability of a god or just thinking happy thoughts - that's still magical, it's still magic, it's clearly not natural.

...unless the fiction-verse says otherwise. Which is precisely the position several persons are taking.

It is not NORMAL, and is exceedingly rare. But within the confines of the settings in which it exists, Psi is merely the result of manipulating as-yet unknown laws of physics directly via one's mind, not breaking them. IOW, though it seems like it, Psi is not magic.

 

[bogmad]

More points for not using spellcasting, but there are magical effects that don't rely on spellcasting in 5e already (the aforementioned monk's agelessness).

Well, to be fair, the monk agelessness was mentioned as a magical effect previously, but I think that kind of slipped by because no one thought to make the argument. Nothing in the PHB actually calls that out as magic. All the text says is that "your Ki sustains you."
Now it is true that the way of the elements has effects that replicate certain arcane spells, but I don't believe there is any hard line where Ki is called out as being magic.
The most that is said about Ki is that it is "mystic energy." I'll leave whether or not "mystic energy" is magic up to subjective opinion myself, but I think there's an argument for it not being magic as much as psionics could be. In that way I can understand how the monk was lumped into a psionic class in 4e.

 

[Tony Vargas]

That seems like a logistical nightmare. To use Psionic Dominate Person, I need to either have the PHB and the Psionic Rules open (to reference both and track the changes) or the Psionic rules must reprint the spell, defeating the purpose of referencing the spell in the first place.

Should be familiar from AD&D. And, as logistical nightmares go, nothing compares to a huge, redundant, new sub-system.

"See PHB XX" is the one thing I DON'T want to see in a psionic power.

It's certainly not the only thing you've mentioned. You seem very committed to denying perfectly workable options to others.

I am PERFECTLY FINE with having psionics and magic be different origins, mechanics, and powers, but be able to detect, dispel, and counter one another. Psionic/Magic Transparency is not the same a Psionics is Magic.

If that makes it work for you, I'm fine with a psionics that works like magic, interacts with magic as if it were magic, faces the same checks on its otherwise unrestrained power as magic, but nominally pretends to be 'not magic.'

 

[Jeff Albertson]

and also (though it's not an important consideration in 5e) limits the impact 'power creep' or 'bloat' can have on game balance.

and, incidentally (because, again, not an important consideration in 5e) carries a higher risk of being 'broken' or otherwise impacting game balance & playability via bloat.

or to be very much in keeping with 5e's doctrine of DM empowerment and attempts at modularity.

What the is your problem? You seem to use this forum as a platform to passively bash 5th Ed, just because it isn't your kiddie 4th Ed game, does not mean it's broken and imbalanced, you are a sour-grapes, fat, gun-toting prick. And when I next come to LA, I am going to go out of my way to visit that -hole of San Jose and pay your sorry, bloated-ass a visit.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

Should be familiar from AD&D. And, as logistical nightmares go, nothing compares to a huge, redundant, new sub-system.

It's certainly not the only thing you've mentioned. You seem very committed to denying perfectly workable options to others.

If that makes it work for you, I'm fine with a psionics that works like magic, interacts with magic as if it were magic, faces the same checks on its otherwise unrestrained power as magic, but nominally pretends to be 'not magic.'

You seem committed to trolling these boards, undermining 5th Ed, off, you pathetic, pedantic, loser, how you are married is beyond me, but she's probably a fat, gun toting, scum- herself.