D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how D&D 4E could have looked

OK on this "I would’ve much preferred the ability to adopt any role within the core 4 by giving players a big choice at level 1, an option that placed an overlay on every power you used or that gave you a new way to use them."
Basically have Source Specific Powers and less class powers. But I think combining that with having BIG differing stances to dynamically switch role might be a better idea so that your hero can adjust role to circumstance. I have to defend this NPC right now vs I have to take down the big bad right now vs I have to do minion cleaning right now, I am inspiring allies in my interesting way, who need it right now.

and the obligatory
Argghhhh on this. " I wanted classes to have different power acquisition schedules"

And thematic differences seemed to have been carried fine.

 

[Garthanos]

Honestly Legolas (and Gimli to a smaller extent) are the only ones able to handle them with such ease. I think this says more about the uber race elves in Tolkien's world than rather they stay a consistent threat for the heroes (which include humans and hobbits as well) as a whole... especially since the entire group spend large swaths of the films fleeing and hiding from them. If they are that inconsequential... why??

Ring Wraiths seemed to be a run away but Aragon with surprise fends them off but fails to completely protect the rest of the group (making it a rather extraordinary challenge because well the hobbits werent really up to it )

For Legalos and Glimli failure when confronted by hoards of orcs also seemed to be more about repercussions on the allies around them and usually never seemed to be about any sort of risk to personal welfare. In 4e they were in a skill challenge with combat elements (and this is something they needed to develop better)

 

[MwaO]

I don't know whether it was intentional or not for specific people, I can't speak to everyone else but I can state that for me some examples of what constituted say a Heroic tier difficulty door that had a DC of 8 vs one with a DC of 26... would have went a long way to not only reinforcing this assumed fiction change but also provided some guidance. It also didn't help that many of the objective DC's they give didn't necessarily align with what I would have assumed their DC to be based on the DC by level charts...

Finally another sticking point for me and one I'm still not sure the answer to is whether a DC 26 moderate paragon door vs say a DC 26 Epic tier easy door are the same fiction wise? If not what is the difference? Also I'm using door as a shorthand for any general obstacle one wishes to substitute.

If a door is DC 26 regardless of tier, they could very well be the same door in fiction. And a Paragon tier PC might be expected to be at 7(level)+5(training)+6(stat) or +18, so needs an 8 or 65% of the time where the Epic Demigod might be 12+5+8 or +25 and therefore auto-succeeds. Hmm — Hercules shatters a door that Lancelot might have some issues dealing with? And what about that Epic Wizard with +12 from level vs a Normal Wizard 1 with a -1. That Epic Wizard might open the door 30% of the time! But 0% of a DC 33 door that I might expect to see for a 65% chance of success.

Three things are going on here:
Either we're in a skill challenge or we're not. A DC 26 door is not really an appropriate challenge for a 24th level Strength PC. If we run into a DC 26 door, that's really to make the Fighter feel good about himself and is not meaningful to the encounter. The rough equivalent here is throwing a DC 10 door in the way of 20 Strength Fighter who has at least a +4 from Proficiency. Sure, you can do it if you want to do it, but it is kind of pointless other than again, to make the player feel good. If you want to challenge an Epic Str PC, you throw a 33 DC door in their way just as you throw a DC 15 door in the way of a 20 Str/+4 proficiency PC.

So that Wizard having a 30% chance of succeeding — and in fact probably can succeed regularly against Heroic tier checks, what's going on there? Well, he's a freaking Wizard. We could define that he has cantrips of Jump and Open Door that he can just casually pull out of his hat. Or maybe he has some undefined magical trinkets that assist with Strength checks. Or perhaps he's learned how to redefine the universe in such a way that the door weakens in his presence. The important question to answer this if necessary is what is the fiction that's fun for the entire table. I'm perfectly okay with the Wizard being defined as having access to some minor cantrips or magic items that don't really see a lot of use as long as my Demigod Fighter is significantly better than him and shines when the focus is on feats of physical prowess.

5e using 4e/2 math means this stuff happens all the time in 5e. So as an example, my 1st level 8 Strength Wizard has a 25% chance of opening up a stuck DC 15 door where a 20th level 20 Strength Fighter might still fail to open it 15% of the time. Note that my Epic Wizard has no chance of upstaging the Epic Fighter when meaningful checks are being performed. The Wizard will auto-fail at that point even if I have a 30% chance of opening a door we'll never see in a meaningful check environment such as a skill challenge.

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So to sum up — static checks are for non-meaningful checks. Changing DCs to challenge the PCs is for meaningful checks. A DC 26 door is always a DC 26 door in 4e. If the correct check is for a DC 26 to challenge the PCs in a skill challenge, then that's where you might find it. If the correct DC is 27, then the door got changed or modified or there'll be a slightly easier check somewhere else in the adventure.

 

[Imaro]

All Goblins are level 1 or 2 a level 10 goblin was being referred to... so I was assuming a DM converted a more powerful Goblin ie Minionized them like one of the Solo Goblins. And there is sort of a general rule (that isnt always necessary depending on the ability) to remove some of the features that a lower level Solo or Standard or Elite might have or simplify so the battle isnt over complicated by having 4 to six instance of it happening. When you convert them to minions or swarms and if you intend monsters to be used exactly as is over a wide range of levels you very much NEED to not include things which like that. They kind of have to be less interesting.

Ah ok now I understand your point better. Probably on me as I didn't get that from reading your post at all. Thanks for explaining. Though again I rarely see this done officially when it comes to 4e minions... they tend to have the same special abilities as their non-minionized counterparts, I would agree that it probably would be a good practice to follow.

 

[Garthanos]

If a door is DC 26 regardless of tier, they could very well be the same door in fiction. And a Paragon tier PC might be expected to be at 7(level)+5(training)+6(stat) or +18, so needs an 8 or 65% of the time where the Epic Demigod might be 12+5+8 or +25 and therefore auto-succeeds. Hmm — Hercules shatters a door that Lancelot might have some issues dealing with? And what about that Epic Wizard with +12 from level vs a Normal Wizard 1 with a -1. That Epic Wizard might open the door 30% of the time! But 0% of a DC 33 door that I might expect to see for a 65% chance of success.

Three things are going on here:
Either we're in a skill challenge or we're not. A DC 26 door is not really an appropriate challenge for a 24th level Strength PC. If we run into a DC 26 door, that's really to make the Fighter feel good about himself and is not meaningful to the encounter. The rough equivalent here is throwing a DC 10 door in the way of 20 Strength Fighter who has at least a +4 from Proficiency. Sure, you can do it if you want to do it, but it is kind of pointless other than again, to make the player feel good. If you want to challenge an Epic Str PC, you throw a 33 DC door in their way just as you throw a DC 15 door in the way of a 20 Str/+4 proficiency PC.

So that Wizard having a 30% chance of succeeding — and in fact probably can succeed regularly against Heroic tier checks, what's going on there? Well, he's a freaking Wizard. We could define that he has cantrips of Jump and Open Door that he can just casually pull out of his hat. Or maybe he has some undefined magical trinkets that assist with Strength checks. Or perhaps he's learned how to redefine the universe in such a way that the door weakens in his presence. The important question to answer this if necessary is what is the fiction that's fun for the entire table. I'm perfectly okay with the Wizard being defined as having access to some minor cantrips or magic items that don't really see a lot of use as long as my Demigod Fighter is significantly better than him and shines when the focus is on feats of physical prowess.

5e using 4e/2 math means this stuff happens all the time in 5e. So as an example, my 1st level 8 Strength Wizard has a 25% chance of opening up a stuck DC 15 door where a 20th level 20 Strength Fighter might still fail to open it 15% of the time. Note that my Epic Wizard has no chance of upstaging the Epic Fighter when meaningful checks are being performed. The Wizard will auto-fail at that point even if I have a 30% chance of opening a door we'll never see in a meaningful check environment such as a skill challenge.

------

So to sum up — static checks are for non-meaningful checks. Changing DCs to challenge the PCs is for meaningful checks. A DC 26 door is always a DC 26 door in 4e. If the correct check is for a DC 26 to challenge the PCs in a skill challenge, then that's where you might find it. If the correct DC is 27, then the door got changed or modified or there'll be a slightly easier check somewhere else in the adventure.

Good examples I leave out details too much.

 

[Parmandur]

If a door is DC 26 regardless of tier, they could very well be the same door in fiction. And a Paragon tier PC might be expected to be at 7(level)+5(training)+6(stat) or +18, so needs an 8 or 65% of the time where the Epic Demigod might be 12+5+8 or +25 and therefore auto-succeeds. Hmm — Hercules shatters a door that Lancelot might have some issues dealing with? And what about that Epic Wizard with +12 from level vs a Normal Wizard 1 with a -1. That Epic Wizard might open the door 30% of the time! But 0% of a DC 33 door that I might expect to see for a 65% chance of success.

Three things are going on here:
Either we're in a skill challenge or we're not. A DC 26 door is not really an appropriate challenge for a 24th level Strength PC. If we run into a DC 26 door, that's really to make the Fighter feel good about himself and is not meaningful to the encounter. The rough equivalent here is throwing a DC 10 door in the way of 20 Strength Fighter who has at least a +4 from Proficiency. Sure, you can do it if you want to do it, but it is kind of pointless other than again, to make the player feel good. If you want to challenge an Epic Str PC, you throw a 33 DC door in their way just as you throw a DC 15 door in the way of a 20 Str/+4 proficiency PC.

So that Wizard having a 30% chance of succeeding — and in fact probably can succeed regularly against Heroic tier checks, what's going on there? Well, he's a freaking Wizard. We could define that he has cantrips of Jump and Open Door that he can just casually pull out of his hat. Or maybe he has some undefined magical trinkets that assist with Strength checks. Or perhaps he's learned how to redefine the universe in such a way that the door weakens in his presence. The important question to answer this if necessary is what is the fiction that's fun for the entire table. I'm perfectly okay with the Wizard being defined as having access to some minor cantrips or magic items that don't really see a lot of use as long as my Demigod Fighter is significantly better than him and shines when the focus is on feats of physical prowess.

5e using 4e/2 math means this stuff happens all the time in 5e. So as an example, my 1st level 8 Strength Wizard has a 25% chance of opening up a stuck DC 15 door where a 20th level 20 Strength Fighter might still fail to open it 15% of the time. Note that my Epic Wizard has no chance of upstaging the Epic Fighter when meaningful checks are being performed. The Wizard will auto-fail at that point even if I have a 30% chance of opening a door we'll never see in a meaningful check environment such as a skill challenge.

------

So to sum up — static checks are for non-meaningful checks. Changing DCs to challenge the PCs is for meaningful checks. A DC 26 door is always a DC 26 door in 4e. If the correct check is for a DC 26 to challenge the PCs in a skill challenge, then that's where you might find it. If the correct DC is 27, then the door got changed or modified or there'll be a slightly easier check somewhere else in the adventure.

Change that door to a DC 20, and the 8 strength Wizard has zero chance of success. And yes, the epic Fighter will still have some chance of failure, which is easy enough to mitigate (aid action, for instance), but that adds to the drama.

 

[MwaO]

Change that door to a DC 20, and the 8 strength Wizard has zero chance of success. And yes, the epic Fighter will still have some chance of failure, which is easy enough to mitigate (aid action, for instance), but that adds to the drama.

Well sure, you can make that DC 15 a DC 20 check to challenge that high level 20 Strength Fighter. But doesn't that sound suspiciously like changing the DC of the check to match up better with the level of the PC?

 

[Parmandur]

Well sure, you can make that DC 15 a DC 20 check to challenge that high level 20 Strength Fighter. But doesn't that sound suspiciously like changing the DC of the check to match up better with the level of the PC?

*shrug*

that's part of DMing. Changing it on the spot is one thing, but designing challenges around the party is part of the fun for everyone involved. And it is possible to do with a handy-dandy chart with a handful of numbers. Adjustment by level need not apply for levels to be meaningful.

If a challenge is only of moderate difficulty (DC 15), it is reasonable for people in the average band of human ability to have some chance of success, but even experts to have some chance of failure (though a high level Rogue could have literally zero chance of failure).

 

[Garthanos]

Ah ok now I understand your point better. Probably on me as I didn't get that from reading your post at all. Thanks for explaining. Though again I rarely see this done officially when it comes to 4e minions... they tend to have the same special abilities as their non-minionized counterparts, I would agree that it probably would be a good practice to follow.

You kind of want some of the identifiable signature but not overwhelming abilities. There is a goblin Solo I seen that featured ongoing poision damage under certain situational conditions. If you start with a minion planned you dont make it like that.

And my snark was also involved in any miscommunication

 

[Imaro]

Change that door to a DC 20, and the 8 strength Wizard has zero chance of success. And yes, the epic Fighter will still have some chance of failure, which is easy enough to mitigate (aid action, for instance), but that adds to the drama.

Yeah the other odd thing is that for some reason opening the door is using a skill in 4e but not in the 5e comparison... which would definitely favor the fighter.

 

[Garthanos]

Yeah the other odd thing is that for some reason opening the door is using a skill in 4e but not in the 5e comparison... which would definitely favor the fighter.

Correct the Fighter in 4e has learned athletics so he is better at applying his strength and it means the fighter is more likely significantly better than the wizard.