D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Oh man, i am getting nostalgic for 4E. Epic Destinies were surprisingly simple constructs and yet really worked well to sell their narrative and make you feel Epic.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

There's no analogue to this in AD&D.

Indeed.

As with far too many things, I suspect the power level being asserted is the power level of skillful, intelligent players....who have gotten a Wizard to 20th level with a goodly supply of powerful magic items. Because Wizard spells, at least in AD&D, kind of had "whatever you can get your GM to agree to" as their power limit, and were thus functionally unlimited unless the GM was particularly draconian about it. (Which must have been exhausting! I have no idea why anyone would want a system where it only works if you choose to be a pernicious dick about every tiny error...and thus get hoist by your own petard should the player make no errors!)

 

[Minigiant]

D&D tiers are about effects not numbers.

For example healing.

Tier 0: You can't bring people back from death

Tier 1: You can't bring people back from death. You can remove "minor" conditions

Low Tier 2: You can bring bring people back from death in extreme circumstances. You can't bring people back from true death. You only have access to Revivify or other features which are like a movie defibrillator. You can remove major conditions.

High Tier 2: You can bring bring people back from death in limited circumstances. You have access to the Raise dead spell or other similar effects. You can remove major conditions on the cheap or part of other actions.

Tier 3: You can bring bring people back from death with barely any restrictions outside obliteration, old death, or old age. You have access to the Resurrection spell or other similar effects. You can regain missing organs. Major conditions are just minor inconveniences.

Tier 4: You can bring bring people back from any true death. Deaths and conditions outside body destruction are minor inconveniences you. It's only utter destruction and imprisonment you fear.

 

[FrogReaver]

That's incorrect. That was not the point of BA.

Thanks for being so very informative.

 

[pemerton]

D&D tiers are about effects not numbers.

4e D&D also defined them in terms of what's at stake, and related stuff like what is the scope/field of action for the PCs. It can be summarised along the lines of:

*Hommlet, KotB and the Slavers are Heroic tier;

*The giants, Drow and even maybe Q1 are Paragon tier;

*Taking the fight to the Outer Planes in a full-blooded way is Epic tier.​

 

[pemerton]

I suspect the power level being asserted is the power level of skillful, intelligent players....who have gotten a Wizard to 20th level with a goodly supply of powerful magic items. Because Wizard spells, at least in AD&D, kind of had "whatever you can get your GM to agree to" as their power limit, and were thus functionally unlimited unless the GM was particularly draconian about it.

I think 4e D&D rewards skilful, intelligent players at all tiers of play, in a least two ways: skill and intelligence are needed to achieve the benefits of cooperation and synergies in combat situations; and skill and intelligence (and also imagination) are needed to fully engage with the fiction (via p 42 as the resolution guidelines), both in and out of combat.

Here's an example of the latter, from upper Epic tier:

As reported here, the PCs in my 4e game had killed Lolth and were facing off against Pazuzu.

<snip>

It then came to the drow sorcerer's turn. In an email a few days ago the player had told me that he had a plan to seal off the Abyssal rift created by the tearing of the Demonwebs and the killing of Lolth, that relied upon the second law of thermodynamics. Now was the time for him to explain it. It took quite a while at the table (20 minutes? Maybe more? There was a lot of interjection and discussion). Here is the summary version:

* The second law of thermodynamics tells us that time and entropy are correlated: increases in entropy from moment to moment are indicative of the arrow of time;

* Hence, when entropy reaches its maximum state - and so cannot increase - time has stopped;

* Hence, if an effect that would normally last until the end of the encounter could be turned into an effect of ultimate chaos (entropy), time would stop in respect of the effect and it would not come to an end.​

So far, so good, but how is this helping to seal off the Abyss?

* Earlier in the encounter the sorcerer had created a Cloak of Winter Storm which, using an elemental swapping item, was actually a zone of thunder (larger than normal because created while a Huge primordial) that caused shift 1 sq which, through various feat combos, was actually teleportation;

* If this could be extended in size, and converted into a zone of ultimate entropy instead of just a zone of thunder, then it would not come to an end (for the reasons given above);

* Furthermore, anyone who approached it would slow down (as time came to a stop with the increase in entropy) and, if they hit it, be teleported back 1 square;

* As to how a zone of elemental thunder might be converted into a zone of ultimate entropy, that's what a chaos sorcerer is for - especially as, at that time, the Slaad lord of Entropy, Ygorl, was trapped inside the Crystal of Ebon Flame and so control over entropy was arguably unclaimed by any other entity and hence available to be claimed by the sorcerer PC.​

But couldn't someone who wanted to pass through this entropic barrier just teleport from one side to the other?

* On his turn, the sorcerer therefore spent his move action to stand from prone (I can't now remember why he had started the session prone), and used his minor action to activate his Cloud of Darkness - through which only he can see;

* He then readied his standard action to help the invoker/wizard perform the mighty feat of Arcana that would merge the darkness and the zone into a visually and physically impenetrable entropic field, through which nothing could pass unless able to teleport without needing line of sight.​

Unfortunately, the invoker/wizard wasn't ready to help with this plan, and had doubts about its chaotic aspect. On his turn, he instead rescued the paladin and fighter PCs who had become trapped in the Abyssal rift (by casting Tide of the First Storm to wash them back up onto the top of the PCs' Thundercloud Tower).

He also used his Erathis's Beacon blessing - a heal effect - to instead cast Remove Affliction as a minor action rather than the normal 1 hour ritual, which rescued the dwarf PC from Far Realm-induced protoplasmic helplessness. (As is the convention in the game, this non-standard use permanently exhausted the blessing.) The healing unfortunately reduced the dwarf fighter to unconsciousness, but his Ring of Pelor (I can't remember now what it's name is in the rulebook) activated and he turned into a cloud of ash, ready to recorporate next round with half his hit points back, and to take on Pazuzu if necessary.

The paladin then used his turn to bodily pick up the drow and carry him into the control circle of the Tower (at the drow's request).

Pazuzu's turn came around, but he did not re-emerge from the rift. This caused some speculation, but there was a general consensus that he could probably survive the harsh Abyssal forces and so mightn't suffer in the same way the PCs had upon being sucked in.

The drow's turn then came around. He used his move action to fly the Tower up and out of the two zones (darkness and thunder). He then used a minor action to cast Stretch Spell - as written, a range-boosting effect but it seemed fitting, in spirit, to try to extend and compress zones to create a barrier of ultimate, impenetrable entropy. And then he got ready to make his Arcana check as a standard action.

Now INT is pretty much a dump stat for everyone in the party but the invoker/wizard. In the case of the sorcerer it is 12 - so with training and level, he has an Arcana bonus of +20. So when I stated that the DC was 41, it looked a bit challenging. (It was always going to be a Hard check - if any confirmation was needed, the Rules Compendium suggests that manipulating the energies of a magical phenomenon is a Hard Arcana improvisation.)

So he started looking around for bonuses. As a chaos mage, he asked whether he could burn healing surges for a bonus on the roll - giving of his very essence. I thought that sounded reasonable, and so allowed 4 surges for +8. Unfortunately he had only 2 surges left, so the other half of the bonus had to come from taking damage equal to his bloodied value - which was OK, as he was currently unbloodied.

He scraped another +2 from somewhere (I can't remember now), brining the roll needed down to 11. The dice was rolled - and came up 18! So he succeeded in converting his zones of darkness and thunder into a compressed, extended, physically and visually impenetrable entropic barrier, in which time doesn't pass (and hence the effects don't end), sealing off the Abyss at its 66th layer.

The unfortunate side effect, as was clarified between me (as GM) and the player before the action was declared, was that - as the effects never end - so he can never recharge his Cloak of Darkness encounter power or his Cloak of the Winter Storm daily.

A modest price to pay for cementing the defeat of Lolth and sealing off the bottom of the Abyss from the rest of creation.

This is the sort of thing that of course will play differently at different tables, But because 4e has a consistent, coherent framework for establishing costs (action economy, recovery or non-recovery of abilities within a common resource suite, sacrificing permanent items (or item-equivalent effects), etc) and DCs (the DC by level table); and because the fiction of tiers is pretty clear and other parts of the game (like Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies) reinforce that fiction, meaning that appropriate effects are also reasonably identifiable; the game facilitates rather than impedes a particular table reaching a consensus about how something like sealing the Abyss can, mechanically, be done.

Epic Destinies were surprisingly simple constructs and yet really worked well to sell their narrative and make you feel Epic.

One thing I like about them is that they are express ("in your face"). The PC is a demigod, or one of the Raven Queen's chief marshals, or - in the case of the chaos sorcerer PC in my play excerpt - an Emergent Primordial.

An emergent primordial can do more than just hang out at the tavern waiting for quests. They're the sort of being that might seal the Abyss!

 

[Minigiant]

4e D&D also defined them in terms of what's at stake, and related stuff like what is the scope/field of action for the PCs. It can be summarised along the lines of:

*Hommlet, KotB and the Slavers are Heroic tier;​

​

*The giants, Drow and even maybe Q1 are Paragon tier;​

​

*Taking the fight to the Outer Planes in a full-blooded way is Epic tier.​

Well the scope and stakes are tied to the effects.

Tier 1 would be T1. Humaniods with a town backup. 4e mostly skips this. You can't revive. No good AOE spells.

Tier 2 would be A and some of G. This is 4e's Heroic tier. Raiders, slavers, "orcs" and lesser giants. T2 or the Heroic tier is world as the first half gives you powerful spells with limitations and adventures far from civilization. Where is the second half gives you upgraded version of those spells and sticks you into either, the deep wilderness, the Underdark or the echo planes (Feywild, Shadowfell, or a homebrew Jotunhiem).

Tier 3 would be the second half of G and Q. This is 4e's Paragon tier. Greater giants, fey, undead, and some demon. You are at the fridges of the worlld, echo planes, or the top of the Inner planes. You have real magic and real martial and skill ability to trivialize normal obstacles.

Tier 4 is Epic play. Like you said you are on full adventure in the Upper planes and thus have magic and skill to not need to go back to the city for services while out on adventure.

Tier 5 is Straight up Greater deities telling you to slay lesser deities, quasi deities, and Eldritch patrons. Rules barely apply anymore.