D&D General Mike Mearls sits down with Ben from Questing Beast

[Micah Sweet]

I do like 2e, but as a ruleset I want none of BX / 1e / 2e back. That is the part I do not like about the OSR much, they hew too close to them instead of creating a 2e+ with stuff we learned in the last 45 or so years

What exactly do you want out of the OSR then? I like Shadowdark too, but that isn't everything.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Around 15:00, Ben brings up something interesting that I thought about often.

For context, I started with 3E, played a ton of 4E, life forced me to focus on other things and I got back with 5E in 2016 before splitting into the OSR and indie RPGs around 2020.

Around 2014, I was in the middle of a long break of RPGs. Yet, with the announcement of D&D Next I was reading news and keeping up with what was happening. I remember vividly tons of old-school players saying that D&D was finally going back to it's root after the high-abstraction of 4E and the high simulationism of 3E. It was my first contact with a huge crowd that still played older editions (2E, 1E, B/X, etc). I definitely remember what Ben describes, this so called call to victory by the old school players.

And now, a decade later, 5E is being torn apart from what seems to be a similar or adjacent crowd as being the antithesis of what an Old School game is. I don't know why it has became cool to naughty word on 5E. I do not like Wizards as a company and I'm done creatively with 5E, I've exhausted that design space. But it's clear to me that it's a well designed game that open the gates to so many new players.

Am I crazy? Is it anecdotal or others remember this shift too?

Lots of old school players applauded 5e as a shift from 3e and 4e.
Many of them are still playing it because the style is more similar to older editions in some respects.

As you say, its cool to hate on the big company / popular thing. Youtube income is often dependent upon negative content (particularly the thumbnails). Forum posts tend to be disproportionately made by people with an axe to grind rather than those who are content.
However pretty much all companies (TSR/Hasbro/WotC included) have done some things that legitimately drive people away from their product, and all products have legitimate issues and reasons for consumers to prefer others instead. The venn diagram of grognards and hipsters definitely intersects, but its not a circle.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The venn diagram of grognards and hipsters definitely intersects, but its not a circle.

I'd say they barely overlap. Even the OSR games they're playing tend to be different, in my experience.

The folks who are happily playing 1E with their battered 1970s hardcovers don't have much or any experience with Mork Borg or even, ironically, with OSE or Dolmenwood. They're just doing the same old thing they've always done.

And, going the other direction, the folks who have a dozen different Borg games and have strong opinions about Cairn vs. Knave don't tend to have much interest in saving throw matrices nowadays.

 

[overgeeked]

I'd say they barely overlap. Even the OSR games they're playing tend to be different, in my experience.

The folks who are happily playing 1E with their battered 1970s hardcovers don't have much or any experience with Mork Borg or even, ironically, with OSE or Dolmenwood. They're just doing the same old thing they've always done.

And, going the other direction, the folks who have a dozen different Borg games and have strong opinions about Cairn vs. Knave don't tend to have much interest in saving throw matrices nowadays.

I'm glad to be one of those perpetually confused outliers then. I'll take 'em all.

 

[mamba]

What exactly do you want out of the OSR then? I like Shadowdark too, but that isn't everything.

The OSR replicating BX over and over again does not interest me. I am not sure I want anything out of the OSR specifically, but I generally would want more evolution and branching out from 1e / 2e. It does not have to be the OSR doing so per se however

The closest OSR-adjacent game I am aware of that seems to do this is Vagabond, but I have not looked into that yet

 

[Zardnaar]

The OSR replicating BX over and over again does not interest me. I am not sure I want anything out of the OSR specifically, but I generally would want more evolution and branching out from 1e / 2e. It does not have to be the OSR doing so per se however

The closest OSR-adjacent game I am aware of that seems to do this is Vagabond, but I have not looked into that yet

Think I want a modern OSR D&D. Not a clone or something that's not D&D.

A variant 3E or 5E as such leaning more towards OSR side of things.

 

[SkidAce]

Think I want a modern OSR D&D. Not a clone or something that's not D&D.

A variant 3E or 5E as such leaning more towards OSR side of things.

With 3e's obsession with modifiers and 4e's emphasis on tactics (both JMO) I felt 5.0 was a return to old school concepts built on a modern elegant frame. I still feel so.

Tasha's might have been a step back towards 3e, but I'm okay with it.

 

[Yaarel]

I like D&D striving for "elegant" mechanics − as simple as possible but not simpler.

The rules do well to avoid clutter but also be flexible enough for use in different settings and gaming styles.

Meanwhile, each setting can modify rules if necessary for the options and the feel of the setting.

 

[mamba]

A variant 3E or 5E as such leaning more towards OSR side of things.

same, a grittier, low magic 5e with simplified classes

 

[Yaarel]

same, a grittier, low magic 5e with simplified classes

Odyssey seems low magic in this sense. The casters are more like 2/3 casters. Where 5e has slot 3 spells at level 5, Odyssey only makes them available at level 8.

I prefer high magic settings. At the same time, Odyssey is instructive for how to savor the flavor of the apprentice tier (levels 1 thru 4). There is no need to rush thru these levels, if that is the feel that a table is looking for.