Mike Mearls Talks (er, Tweets) About the Industry

I think history has proven Mike wrong. The problem is that D&D isn't a game. D&D is a framework that allows 5 players to make a game.

So if you like boardgames, you got lots of different games to choose from. If you like RPGs, you got lots of games to choose from. But those games are the things GMs do with D&D. My campaign is my own game I've developed. Your campaign is yours.

I think there's a market for lots of different RPGs in that sense. Because each gaming group playing D&D is running its own unique game, in their own homebrew setting with their own house rules.

But I don't think there's a market for different *frameworks*. I think there's demand for *a* framework, that players use to develop lots of different games.

 

[Remathilis]

You say this in a year that has seen the release of Eberron and Seafaring playtest material, class modifications including spell-less rangers and favored souls, mass combat rules, four new races, and about 10 pages of new spells. All for free.

How much of that have you used in your games so far?

Playtest materials. To be honest, the Eberron one turned me cold to using UA in anything but a playtest, the races clearly weren't balanced againt the PHB ones yet and the artificer (even ignoring what it was supposed to emulate) was the weakest subclass this side of beastmaster. I'm sure the favored soul and stormborn are good, but as far as "rules written in ink" there hasn't been much.

And for what its worth, the EE PG has seen some good use already, but that is four races and 20 some spells. Maybe if they keep that up for RoD, it will be OK, but there is no indication we are getting a RoDPG this time, nor did the press release say anything about new spells or races like the EE one did.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Playtest materials. To be honest, the Eberron one turned me cold to using UA in anything but a playtest, the races clearly weren't balanced againt the PHB ones yet and the artificer (even ignoring what it was supposed to emulate) was the weakest subclass this side of beastmaster. I'm sure the favored soul and stormborn are good, but as far as "rules written in ink" there hasn't been much.

Not all of that is playtest, man. Class modification stuff was cut from the DMG, and the PotA stuff was a full product release and even if it was all playtest, if you're chomping at the bit for content, that is frickin' content! And more than that, stuff that WotC will listen ot you when you tell them how it's not working for you!

The question still stands: how much of this stuff has seen the light of day at your table?

At my table(s), I think it's one spell. And I like this stuff!

 

[Mistwell]

Serious question.

Why are you assuming in all of your arguments like this that we all are somehow supposed to like what has been put out so far?

If you don't like the stuff they've put out so far that's expansion material but not adventure material, why are you assuming that MORE material would result in things you like? I mean...your track record says you're not going to like it regardless of quantity, because your tastes don't mesh well with theirs.

Please stop telling us there is stuff there to use when it's not liked by some of us.

Why? It's a logical reply to you saying you want more quantity of material, to name the quantity that does exist.

What happens if you go to a party and they offer nothing but cheese and you don't like cheese.

They've offered a wide variety of things, from races, to classes, spells, etc.. So it's not all one type of food (to use your analogy) it's many types of food. That you happen to dislike all of them - that's your issue at that point. The host has no reason to think offering you more would get a better result from you - you have tastes which obviously don't mesh with the kinds of foods they provided at the party, so just suck it up because the party isn't about food anyway. Or leave, if you're at the party to eat food as opposed to enjoy the company. But yeah - never tell the host that despite giving you many choices of food to eat for free at their party, you don't like any of it and want more and different foods. Bring something to the party next time of your own so you have something to eat that you like, and make sure to offer it to others at the party as well.

Now mind you they are offering lots of different cheeses. Are you going to sit there and eat it anyway or are you going to want something else?

I suggest you sit there and eat, because you're an adult at a party. Or don't eat. But don't say anything about it - it's a party. But really, most of this response is because you chose a rotten analogy. Analogies are bad methods of discussing D&D to begin with (they're useful when someone might not know what you're talking about so you need to compare to something they do know about - they're not as useful when everyone knows the topic to begin with). This analogy in particular was really bad.

 

[Remathilis]

Not all of that is playtest, man. Class modification stuff was cut from the DMG, and the PotA stuff was a full product release and even if it was all playtest, if you're chomping at the bit for content, that is frickin' content! And more than that, stuff that WotC will listen ot you when you tell them how it's not working for you!

The question still stands: how much of this stuff has seen the light of day at your table?

At my table(s), I think it's one spell. And I like this stuff!

So, if you're not interested in "pencil, not ink" rules, we got one new subclass, one alt class, four races, and a dozen spells. Of that, the spells and 3/4 races are AL legal.

Yeah, more than enough for one campaign, but what about in a year? two years? When are those other UAs going into ink mode? What about filling some of those other areas where the game is weaker (high level monsters, summoning spells, subclasses for those "two in the PHB" classes).

Really, its not about filling the game with splat and bloat, but if UA is all we're getting, it'd be nice if it was more "inkish" than "pencilish".

 

[Tony Vargas]

There seems to be this narrow notion that if it hasn't flopped yet then it's smooth sailing from here which is not a fact.

It's a matter of expectation and RoI. 5e has only a couple of developers working on it, and is putting out only a couple of farmed-out adventure books a year. That's a very low investment, it requires only a very modest return to justify it's continued existence. That's the way most RPGs are managed, and it's a very, very safe strategy for D&D, the biggest fish in this little pond. So yes, it's smooth sailing, ponds not being prone to huge waves or anything.

 

[Mistwell]

So, if you're not interested in "pencil, not ink" rules, we got one new subclass, one alt class, four races, and a dozen spells. Of that, the spells and 3/4 races are AL legal.

Yeah, more than enough for one campaign, but what about in a year?

That all came out in a matter of 6 months. It's not grinding to a halt - if 6 months of material is good enough to hold you over for a year, then you're more than set.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Uh, no it wasn't (not even close). But really, after you said WOTC is trying to kill D&D and ceded the market to Paizo, I think this conversation exceeded the silly quotient.

I didn't say that's that they were trying to do, I just said that it sometimes appears that way. And you DO have to admit that they've often done their damnedest to find some totally perverse way to shoot themselves in the foot.

WotC called 4e the best release they'd ever done. It most certainly topped the gaming charts for a good long time, and it was absolutely on the overall best sellers list for a good while. I still don't think 5e is THAT unusual. It hasn't in any sense broken into new territory or anything like that.

I think WotC MOSTLY avoided f'ing up this time around though. They didn't actively insult half the player base, or any number of other giant idiotic things they did surrounding 4e. PF has also now shot its bolt, its still popular but people aren't running to buy it anymore. WotC just got their lunch handed to them by Paizo, by circumstances, and by their own great ineptitude. If this launch is 'more like 3e', then the conclusion is that its what goes on around the launch period and in the leadup to it that matters.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

So what? It is in fact a major question. If you don't like 5E or Pathfinder and don't play them, then you have no vested interest in their success and a more than likely interest in their failure insofar as you can actually affect dissent. Same as occurred with people that don't like 4E when it was released. So a guy that doesn't like something spending his time on a 5E forum (a game he doesn't like) making negative posts might very well...and with good reason...be viewed as pushing a campaign of negative attacks on the game system he doesn't like. A guy that isn't focused on negative attacks and has an edition of D&D he likes spends his time talking about that game system with players that like the same system he likes.

I was in a similar situation when 4E released. I tried it, didn't like it, and spent time complaining about it because 4E felt shoved down my throat by a company telling me they didn't care what a thirty year D&D player liked. I stuck around complaining for a long time sowing dissent in a similar fashion to yourself using negative attacks veiled as well-reasoned debate to vent my dislike of the new version of D&D. Eventually, I found Pathfinder which gave me a preferred version of D&D with a different name. I hung out with other people that preferred what I preferred. I found that much more to my liking.

Maybe you're in the early stages of disappointment and venting. It's pretty obvious at this point you are out to paint WotC and 5E in a negative manner. If you don't have a vested interest in the success of 5E as in you are playing it and planning to support it by purchasing new products, I'd like to know so I don't waste my time discussing the game with you. It's a waste of time for someone that doesn't like a game or plan to play it to spend time on a forum where that game is being discussed by fans as they will never be of like mind and will only cause foolish debates as someone that dislikes 5E refuses to acknowledge its successes and the fans refuse to acknowledge any weaknesses.

I'd advise you as a person in a similar position in 4E not to waste your time attempting negative debate of a game you don't plan to play. Your time would be more productively spent playing and discussing an edition of D&D you like than attempting to sow the seeds of dissent on a forum of 5E fans. At this point you seem to be a person that doesn't like 5E and your posts sound like unsupported and speculative criticism of 5E with the sole intent painting a negative picture of a rather positive one. I have no idea why you believe WotC wouldn't move carefully to ensure a carefully plotted and successful launch of a new game system intended to retake the top TTRPG slot wouldn't require slow and careful management. You seem to be confusing WotC and Mearls moving slow with giving up on TTRPG. Why would Mearls give up on something he has spent years of his life planning? 5E is four years or more of Mearls life? He helped write the rules, carefully play-tested them over years using a painstaking survey and playtesting process, and you expect him and the D&D team to suddenly rush things? Pretty odd viewpoint. If this is coming from a person that doesn't even like 5E, I can only say caveat emptor to anyone that responds to your criticisms.

It's pretty obvious why Mearls is doing things the way he is doing them. He has been nothing but slow and careful since he took over as head guy overseeing TTRPG D&D. Why do you expect him to change now?

Man, I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't have an issue with 5e. I'm not on some sort of quest to dis 5e, and AFAIK I haven't said anything negative about it particularly. Is the mere suggestion that your favorite game is just another iteration of D&D so antithetical to you that you can't see anything short of adoration as an insult to it?

As of right this minute a 5e game is the only thing I'm playing in. I doubt that will be true for too much longer, but I like the people in the game pretty well, some of them I've gamed with since the 70's and 80's. I think I'm a bit bored with the type of fodder that 5e serves up, but whatever. Anyway, I'm sure people aren't that interested in hearing about my preferences in this thread...

 

[Mistwell]

Man, I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't have an issue with 5e. I'm not on some sort of quest to dis 5e, and AFAIK I haven't said anything negative about it particularly. .

This is a 90's vintage game. Its D&D saying "we give up, we're just going to go back to being AD&D, and that's it."

And really, the content is rather uninspired for D&D. Nothing really surprising about the classes, no new ground broken. The casting system is a modest tweak similar to any number of homebrews going back to the 70's, but the result is pretty much the same as AD&D-vintage spell-casting, with all the same quirks and limitations of presentation, tone, and genre. The fighter gets a few tricks, but they're all pretty darn close to just "more attacks and more damage." The various subclasses sometimes transcend a bit beyond 2e PHB material, but not a lot. The mechanics are clearly cleaner than 2e or even 3e, but mostly fall short of the standards of 4e. It seems like a very half-hearted game really.

That sure didn't look positive in tone.

 

[Vael]

Not all of that is playtest, man. Class modification stuff was cut from the DMG, and the PotA stuff was a full product release and even if it was all playtest, if you're chomping at the bit for content, that is frickin' content! And more than that, stuff that WotC will listen ot you when you tell them how it's not working for you!

The question still stands: how much of this stuff has seen the light of day at your table?

At my table(s), I think it's one spell. And I like this stuff!

With the exception of the PotA player material, though, it's all UA stuff. So, yes, that puts mass combat at the same level as Eberron and the modified classes and I do treat it all as playtest material. As in, not really ready for my on-going campaigns. Sure, if I were running more games and actually trying to test this stuff, it'd see usage, but I don't play enough to do that.

None of the expanded material has seen it to my tables, but I wouldn't expect it to, as I'm the only one in my group that reads the UA materials. Only one of my players even owns the PHB, so nothing outside the Core 3 has been used.