Minatures Handbook

[DMEntropy]

Northman, why don't you post the feats you are interested in here so we can all look at them. I have been stuck in the hospital for the past several days too late to get to the bookstore.

 

[Northman]

I'll make a thread for them.

 

[DMEntropy]

I have read through the meta-magic feats in the Miniatures Handbook. They all seem to allow a caster to use a meta-magic feat (Empower, Still Spell, Maximize, etc.) once per day without preparation and at no increase in the spell slot for the spell. Thus, with this new feat a wizard could cast a Maximized Fireball using the Fireball spell memorized in his 3rd level spell slot.

This seems out of balance. If there was the usual increase in spell slot required for the spell, that would be different. I don't think that the benefit of a meta-magic feat should come without the increase in spell slot level.

 

[Emiricol]

I have read through the meta-magic feats in the Miniatures Handbook. They all seem to allow a caster to use a meta-magic feat (Empower, Still Spell, Maximize, etc.) once per day without preparation and at no increase in the spell slot for the spell. Thus, with this new feat a wizard could cast a Maximized Fireball using the Fireball spell memorized in his 3rd level spell slot.

This seems out of balance. If there was the usual increase in spell slot required for the spell, that would be different. I don't think that the benefit of a meta-magic feat should come without the increase in spell slot level.

I don't have the book, and haven't seen the feats. But just based on what you've said, I agree that the benefit of a meta-magic feat should come without the increase in spell slot level.

 

[Northman]

I think what it does is take little used feats (and I mean very little used) and make them usable. It allows the spellcaster to use a metamagic feat without using a higher spellslot and can do it on command, but only once a day. Compare that with other feats like rapid shot or cleave or spell caster prodigy. Feats normally are always in effect and can happen many times a day.

Also, each one has the prerequisite of another metamagic feat, except for sudden quicken which has an ungoldly number of prerequisites, which it should, and can only be taken at very high levels.

I've never been much of a fan of metamagic feats because they are double limited. You have to memorize them in advance, not knowing what would be useful to maximize or enlarge, etc. (if you're using a wizard) and they take up higher level spell slots. AND you have to use a precious feat to do it. In 3 years I've seen them used only a couple of times.

I've begun to playtest them out in my offline game and so far so good. These sudden feats really seem like that extra card in the spellcaster's hip pocket they can play once a day to get them out of a jam or trash someone like a smite evil or such. And like those abilities it's easy to not use it because you're waiting for the perfect moment to unleash it.

With the prerequisite of another meta magic feat you also have to build up to it. You can't just start with one unless you are a human and get two feats. And if you're doing that then you're not taking feats like spell casting prodigy (which is huge), spell focus, combat casting, etc.

My thoughts on it so far.

 

[DMEntropy]

Well, I agree with your impression of the meta-magic feats. I have played wizards almost exclusively since I started playing this game. When the meta-magic feats were introduced I thought that they were interesting, but have yet to take one with one of my characters. The only place I see them being useful is during the creation of wands or other magic items.

These new feats essentially remove the "costs" of the meta-magic feats by taking a second feat. I'm not sure I like that. Let us know how the playtesting goes.

 

[Northman]

Will do. For those who don't know what we're talking about here's a list of them.

Also, after typing them up, I realize that my explanation that they all took another metamagic feat as their prerequisite was wrong. They are each different with many of the lower powered ones no having a prerequisite at all. Hmmm, imagine being able to cast one silent spell a day without specially preparing it. No more, well, I won't know I'll need it till I do and then it's too late...

Sudden Empower [Metamagic]
You can cast one spell per day to greater effect without special preparation.
Prerequisite: Any metamagic feat
Benefit: Once per day, you may apply the Empower Spell feat to any spell you cast, without increasing the level of the spell or specially preparing it ahead of time. You may still use the Empower Spell feat normally, if you have it.

The others are the same except the following:

Sudden Energy Affinity
Prerequisite: Energy Affinity

Sudden Enlarge
No prerequisite

Sudden Extend
No prerequisite

Sudden Maximize

Sudden Quicken
Prerequisites: Quicken Spell, Sudden Empower, Sudden Extend, Sudden Maximize, Sudden Silent, Sudden Still

Sudden Silent
no prerequisite

Sudden Still
No prerequisite

Sudden Widen
no prerequisite

 

[Renfield]

I've taken a glance at some of the things in the book and I have to say I like them, even if some of them are a little un-balanced the way I see that is life isn't 100% fair so why should game be, then again I DM for a bunch of highly skilled min-maxers so when someone says certain 3.0 spells like haste are broken spells I laugh and stick out my tongue and make a silly faces and the like. One learns to adapt after a time. I wish I could buy it, alas I'm currently hunting for a home, that warriors book looks interesting as well though I'm not too much of a fan of the straight up fighter it still has a few juicy bits.

As for Entropy, I share some of your dislike for the new direction, I miss the days of 1st and second edition where some things were simpler and not all crunchy bits oriented. Alas it'll be some time before I find a group willing to play second edition again.

 

[Northman]

Oh I remember the days of second edition, and first edition, and Basic D&D: the old boxed sets. There is a lot that I love about Basic D&D and First edition. I loved the sense of anything could happen and the DM was the storyteller. There was a lot of mystery because you could never truely know the game. Now it's much more quantified and compartmentalized. It's a game that transfers to video games and mintature games well.

But I also remember the crazy 500 house rules we used to make up for all the game's shortcommings. I remember the frustration on a player's face when dealing with a DM that came up with crazy interpretations of rules during gameplay because the rules were so vauge. I remember players who just wanted to know what they could and couldn't do so they could push the boundaries and outsmart the bad guys within the rules. Problem was the rules were so vague the boundaries were all but invisible.

How did I get on this monologue? Oh, I guess it just reminds me of why I play the game. The mystique that drew me in as a fasinated elementry school kid and the nostolgia that keeps me going. D&D is a different game for everyone I suppose. For some a wargame, for others a free flowing experience of the imagination. For most, somewhere inbetween.

Man, I love this game. It's late and I'm sick. I shouldn't be writing in this condition. God bless Dungeons and Dragons.

 

[Renfield]

Don't let the Christian extremists hear you say that Oh the wonderful talk I had when I walked into the Christian Bookstore after a trip to buy some random D&D item or another. If I had had my backpack I wouldn't have missed that bus. Ah well.

Alas my current group are getting a little too attatched to all the crunchy bits that come with 3rd edition d20 published produicts which means after this campaign I'll have to steer them away from it. They aren't going to like me banning templates let alone non wizards of the coast D20 items. They'll live though.