Mind Blank vs Smite

[rushlight]

If you hit someone with a flaming weapon, it's the same in case he has elemental resistance. You hit him, your weapon is burning, but it's his problem whether it hurts him more or not. In the case of the paladin... it's the good old witch test. Burn her, if she's not burning, then she's a witch

Ahh, but if someone is using a flaming weapon, there's a way to defend against that - energy resistance.

If someone is using a holy weapon against you, how can you defend against that (short of not being hit)?

 

[Philip]

Atone for your evil deeds!

 

[Chroma]

Atone for your evil deeds!

Well played! *golf clap*

 

[rushlight]

Atone for your evil deeds!

Hehee...

Actually, I'm the DM... and I've got an epic level paladin who will smack the tar out of the BBG. As I'd like the big battle to be a challenge, I figured I'd try and find a way for the BBG to temporarily negate that nasty Smite. Plus, the whole party has super-ultra-mega-holy weapons or Purified spells. Which means if BBG is evil (which he is... otherwise he wouldn't be the Bad guy!) then he will die a quick painful death.

But if there's a spell that negates all that holy crap, then he'll get a round or perhaps two before they figure it out and solve that problem first. Besides, what 20th level wizard / demi-lich wouldn't have figured out that being evil = smackdown by the holy party who's been chasing him for years? Surely someone of that caliber would have figured some defense against the holy stuff.

I figured a spell would give them pause, and make them think a bit - but it still would be easily overcome when the time comes. If you were the lich, what would YOU do with a party of holy rollers on the warpath?

 

[BAW]

If you were the lich, what would YOU do with a party of holy rollers on the warpath?

I would trap the good guys underground in a huge anti-magic field with the Tarrasque and seal the entrance way with an anti-magic field and a rockslide. But that's only for the truely evil

 

[UltimaGabe]

Ahh, but if someone is using a flaming weapon, there's a way to defend against that - energy resistance.

If someone is using a holy weapon against you, how can you defend against that (short of not being hit)?

As far as I know, you can't defend against it. But look at the abilities- a flaming weapon hurts everyone and everything you attack, unless they happen to have Fire resistance. A Holy weapon only affects a handful of creatures, and will have absolutely no effect on animals or objects. It does a bit more damage, but costs more to make and is just as balanced (if not underbalanced) as a Flaming weapon, since it only affects certain people, but there's no way to defend against it.

 

[alaric]

In our game, Smite worked against Mind Blanked foes. This makes sense - Smite doesn't care at all whether or the paladin knows the target is evil. Holy power just reacts badly when contacting an evil soul, and vice versa.

However, this can lead to the use of a Smite as form of alignment detection, or more likely confirmation, against Mind Blanked foes. Alignment abiguity is impossible even with spells of the highest order.

The extra damage granted by smite is metagame, and should in no way prove to the character that the target is evil.

 

[Darklone]

I figured a spell would give them pause, and make them think a bit - but it still would be easily overcome when the time comes. If you were the lich, what would YOU do with a party of holy rollers on the warpath?

That AMF tactic is pretty valid...

Otherwise: What about dominating some nice lawful good paladins as bodyguards ?

 

[BSF]

Hmm, let me ask this though:

Everyone seems to agree that Smite goes off against "evil" targets, but simply has no affect. So at some point, the Smite ability must ascertain whether the target is in fact "evil". Doesn't it stand to reason that if a target cannot be defined as "evil" (even with magic as strong as a Wish spell) then effects that work against "evil" won't go off?

Second, refering to those spells you mentioned. Would you agree that every offensive weapon in the game should have a defensive counter-balance, and vice versa? Are there any spells (besides negating magic altogether) that *would* be effective against those spells (as well as Smite)?

You can look at Smite in a number of different ways.
- It is a strike imbued with purity and positive energy that just does not mesh well with evil folks.
- It is a benefit from the overall powers of good. As in the universal concepts of good and evil. It cannot be fooled because it is a universal constant.
- It is channeled through the paladin and if the paladin doesn't know you are evil, then it doesn't work.
- etc

There are problems with some of these "explanations" and not all of them will be applicable in your campaign. But, the ability does not state that it "detects" anything ahead of time. This is backed by the text indicating that you can smite a non-evil target, it just has no affect. So, I would adjudicate that the smite will still work, regardless of the mind blank spell.

Of course, there is nothing saying that the PC's have any way of knowing the smite worked. You can provide flavor to the hit giving an indication if you choose.

Nor do I agree that there needs to be a counter to everything. Smite Evil is balanced by Smite Good, not by a protection from Smite Evil. Holy weapons are balanced by Unholy weapons. This is not to say that there can't be defensive counters to these types of things, but I do not see a necessity for the rules to guarantee a counter.

Rushlight - I agree that it would make sense for some characters to look for ways to counter the holy weapon syndrome. And if you are playing with Epic games, it is quite possible that something like that could be found. I would suggest that you think about how Smite Evil works in your game. Figure out if you need an underlying justification of how it works, and if so, what it is. Then you will have figured out a way to create a counter to Smite Evil.

 

[mikebr99]

Hehee...

Actually, I'm the DM... and I've got an epic level paladin who will smack the tar out of the BBG. As I'd like the big battle to be a challenge, I figured I'd try and find a way for the BBG to temporarily negate that nasty Smite. Plus, the whole party has super-ultra-mega-holy weapons or Purified spells. Which means if BBG is evil (which he is... otherwise he wouldn't be the Bad guy!) then he will die a quick painful death.

But if there's a spell that negates all that holy crap, then he'll get a round or perhaps two before they figure it out and solve that problem first. Besides, what 20th level wizard / demi-lich wouldn't have figured out that being evil = smackdown by the holy party who's been chasing him for years? Surely someone of that caliber would have figured some defense against the holy stuff.

I figured a spell would give them pause, and make them think a bit - but it still would be easily overcome when the time comes. If you were the lich, what would YOU do with a party of holy rollers on the warpath?

He could alter the Death Ward spell to be Life Ward, which simply works against positive energy effects instead of negative energy.

Mike