Miniature Handbook: Balance Problems for Regular D&D

[BrooklynKnight]

Ok, I'll toss in my 2 cents.

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Favored Soul: I have not allowed the Favored Soul in my games, and I am unlikely to do so. I have been flirting with the idea of making all Divine Spellcasters spontaneous casters (which I think better reflects divine assistance), and the Favored Soul just doesn't fit the mold I am looking for. The gradual energy resistance and eventual wings make it more of a transformational class (like many PrCs), and I generally do not like the idea of transformation as a class feature (I prefer to make it the point of becoming an Epic character).

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So you dont like the monk either? If i'm not mistaken doesnt he transform into an outsider at 20th level?

 

[Silveras]

So you dont like the monk either? If i'm not mistaken doesnt he transform into an outsider at 20th level?

Well, it is largely a non-issue. I am running games in a part of my world based on Western Europe. The European warrior-monk model is the Cleric class. (Martial arts) Monks come from the pseudo-Asian part if my world, and none of my players has been interested enough to come up with a reason why one would be so far from home. Thus, no Monks in my game.

While I still dislike the transformational ability at the end of the Monk's progression, it is more fitting after 19 levels of dedicated progress than after 10 (which may have started at 7th).

Such a transformation marks the "end" of a standard 20-levels-max campaign. I view campaigns in my world as part of the ongoing world events, with Epic levels assumed to be avilable. There is no "end", only a pause and perhaps a change of perspective. So, I don't allow any of the transformational PrCs, and I would probably alter any base class that had such an ability.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Favoured Soul: I love it! Their reduced spell choice is very fair, but Creamsteak's comments about the Reflex save is quite accurate.

I DM for one, and so far he seems weaker than a cleric. Definetly weaker than the Spont Cleric from UA, and probably weaker than the Mystic from DL. the Weapon stuff is the main advantage, since he took spiked chains (Kosssuth).

Healer: Ugh, way too combat oriented for my tastes. The only way I can see this working is as a dual classed option, I think a monk/healer would be a great way to go.

Or a Healer/ Apostle of Peace strikes my fancy for some reason.

Marshal: I think this would be a fun class to play at higher levels, when commanding groups of soldiers. I haven't had any players express interest and I understand why: buffing others combat abilities at the cost of your own isn't much fun.

There's one in a game I play in, Marshal/ Apostle of Peace. He just joined us, and the group was already pretty filled out. I'm a psychic weapon master that spends most of my time in Firbolg form, the other front guy is a half-fiend frenzied berserker. There's a tricked out archer and a sorcerer, plus a monk.
So far, I doubt a marshal would override a bard much. In fact, I think the benefits would play nicely off each other. (the marshal player was originally going to make a bard/marshal) But, it's not a role for everybody.

 

[Iron Sheep]

Warmage: My god, does this thing have ANY limitations? How does it learn spells (like a sorc, wiz or clr?) Does it blow sorcerer away?

One of the characters in the game my wife runs is a Warmage. We're at 16th level right now, and our combat tactics seem to often be "keep the warmage alive while he blasts."

The warmage is a pretty one-dimensional class. It's extremely good at offensive magic, and we've yet to have a situation where the warmage has run out of spells before we've decided it's time to retreat. I think it would be nastier than a blast-oriented sorcerer, but not by much, and the limited spell list means that the versatility given by scrolls, wands and staffs isn't there.

The warmage is a very simple class to play: the character in question is a second character for the player (we decided we needed a more powerful caster at the levels we were getting to), and the lack of choices is a distinct benefit.

Our group would really be in trouble if he were our only arcane caster. One of our characters has a sorcerer cohort, and between the two of them we can do what needs to be done.

The class could be very effective as a part of a fighter/mage dual class package, since it can cast wearing armour. It definitely wouldn't be the primary caster of a group in that role, though.

So, over-all, not a bad class. Powerful at what they do, but very limited in other areas. I think the player has fun playing the character, so it passes that test too. But you really need someone who can cast all those other useful arcane spells.

Corran

 

[Felon]

for a while, I've been debating if the four new classes in the MHB (Favored Soul, Healer, Marshal, Warmage) were balanced for regular D&D. My concerns...

Favored Soul: good atk, all good saves, spont divine casting, energy resist, wpn foc/spec, and wings, is this too good compared to a cleric, or another spontaneous divine caster (mystic/evangelist)?

You can basically think of the good Reflex save as a trade-off for losing the ability to turn undead. It's not overly powerful as far I've seen. I allow it in my campaign, but since I've now made clerics into spontaneous casters as well (using Unearthed Arcana optional rules), their niche is gone. Favored Souls probably are better than Dragonlance mystics, but if so that's because the mystic is underpowered.

Healer: Is this thing too weak compared to a cleric and his spont/heals?

Healers are not combatants. If that equates to weak, then weak they are. They are balanced, but unappealing. There are some pretty bad design elements with this class. First off--and if there are any lurking WotC staffers out there, take notes--if you're going to design a class that's an ultra-specialized uber healer that can't fight it's way out of a soggy paper sack, then give that class some ability to heal at range. At the very least, the class should gain the ability to cast cures without provoking an AoO at 1st level (rather than gaining it at a point where a cleric can easily cast spells defensively).

Secondly, I would consider the virtues of re-envisioning the basic concept for this class, perhaps thinking in terms of "empath" rather than "healer", which is not only a label with more flavor (and have no doubt that means something to a lot of people) but it opens up the alignment restrictions a bit more. An empath could be neutral, or even corrupt and evil (think Raven from the Teen Titans during her darker days).

Marshal: Better buffer than the bard?

He's a different kind of buffer. It sort of makes you the Captain Picard of the group. Good skill list. He does out-buff the bard at higher levels--he'd darn well better, as that's pretty much all he does. Note that these are not morale bonuses though, and they do stack with the effects of bardic music. I play one in a Dragonlance campaign and enjoy it quite a bit. I'm thinking about making him a Tactical Soldier (also in the Mini Handbook).

My only real beef with them is that some of the auras are just flat-out better than others, which makes designing a marshal rather homogenous.

Warmage: My god, does this thing have ANY limitations? How does it learn spells (like a sorc, wiz or clr?) Does it blow sorcerer away?

Sure it has limitations. It is very limited, in fact. I play a 13th-level Warmage in one campaign, and I'm thinking about replacing him with a sorcerer. You really only need so many ways to dish out damage. The people who are agog at his spell list need to notice there's no read magic anywhere on there. That kinda takes scrolls off the menu. He also can't benefit from wands like a sorcerer can. And wearing armor means not wearing mage robes. Btw, the Warmage Edge ability is pretty dumb ("excuse me Mr. DM, add another 2 points of damage to the 131 I just did with disintegrate--I forgot about my mighty warmage edge!").

You asked how he learns spells. The warmage knows all the spells that he's able to cast. That's a lot compared to a sorcerer, a scant few compared to a wizard.

General: what are your issues, concerns, experiences, and advice/tweaks to allow these classes into a pretty vanilla D&D game?

What are you considering a vanilla D&D game? The warmage is expressly intended for campaigns that are little more than a Games Workshop tabletop skirmish game (although he does get Intimidate as a class skill, which is kinda cool). OTOH, if your campaign has a lot of noncombat elements like and roleplaying and investigation, the healer and marshal should work into the mix pretty well. Some might feel that there shouldn't be classes that don't have offensive capability, but in movies and literature (and d20 modern for that matter) those types of characters abound. I say more power to'em (or is that less power to'em? )

 

[Remathilis]

Thanks for everyone's opinion...

I think I'll allow all the classes as is, but be ready to change some incase things go haywire.

My game is set in the backdrop of a possible war, and it involves both war and peace. Favored Souls are the champions of thier gods, Healers are a society of like-minded deities, marshals are the commanders of the armies, and warmages are state-trained mages.

Between these, core, psionic and complete classes, that is more than enought choices.

 

[NilesB]

If you play a sorcerer who only takes combat magic, then you're probably better off playing a Warmage. If, on the other hand, you like having spells like comphrehend languages and dimension door, the Warmage sucks.

I'd say the warmages lack of flexibility hurts it even in combat. A Sorceror in a fight can dish out HP, buff allys, debuff foes, summon, or run battlefield control. a single Sorceror may not be able to do all of these things but almost all will be able to do at least 2 or 3 of them. A Warmage dishes out HP. How many Sorcerors learn both lightning bolt and fireball? How many spells known would you have to give a Sorceror who knew one before they would learn the other?

 

[Scion]

favored soul also loses out on domains, which is another huge hit. I think that they probably should've given it a few more bonuses to cancel out those negatives not just a good reflex save.

anyway though, we have a marshal in our party, he is definately the face. The marshal has an incredible skill list! nearly every good skill there is, and a decent amount of skill points to get them. he isnt really a bruiser in combat (we leave that to my horse strangely), but his auras are always nice.

Currently he has the +cha bonus to dex related things going most of the time, and then when in combat he switches to +cha bonus to various combat manuevers so that he can trip things. That, along with having the DR aura, has literally saved peoples lives on multiple occasions. Not taking poison damage because the weapon for the injected poison only did one.. reduced to 0.. saves all sorts of lives!

Later on he is going to be taking a prc I made for him, it gets rid of some of his combat potential (and the extra move actions, I will miss those.. we havent gotten that high yet, but wow they look incredible) in order to focus more on auras.

I think it will work out fine, it is a great class, but very hard to play. basically you really have to know what your strengths are, and his currently is diplomacy, good initiative for everyone, and DR So, if the first doesnt work the other two fix the problem!

 

[pawsplay]

Healer: Sort of boring, far from necessary. But playable. I think a Prestige Class for divine casters that gave you a unicorn companion would have been better.

Marshall: Starts off with a bang, but has only incremental advantages over Bards at higher levels. An excellent choice for multi-classing with a warrior class, creating the buffing Fighter. Mix with Purple Dragon Knight and so forth to taste. 2 levels can set up a Paladin, Ranger, or Fighter for a pretty good buffing role. Also, has Diplomacy as a class skill, in case your Cleric isn't the talkative type.

Favored Soul: Basically a +0 LA Outsider... three good saves, medium BAB, etc. But you don't actually become an outsider till the end. In flavor, suffers from a lack of Domains, or options for non-winged Favored Souls (burrowing Dwarves seem like a better notion). In power, suffers from a lack of spell versatility, lack of Domains, and lack of turning. In practice, the Favored Soul is a poor cousin to the Paladin.

Warmage: Some minor advantages, but highly specialized. The Warmage is to the Sorcerer as the Fighter is to the Ranger.

 

[MerricB]

The healer is an unusual class; it has two main purposes:

One is to be a cohort character. As such it functions admirably, and allows your other characters to be more offensive in their outlook.

The other is for casual roleplayers. I've seen it referred to as the "girlfriend" class, and there's a lot of truth in that. Note that I'm not referring to those women who really enjoy RPGs, but rather the girlfriend of one of the players who just wants to socialise, rather than be concerned with combat and suchlike.

If I'm stereotyping here, I'm sorry. That's not my intention.

If one examines the Healer class, you discover that it has excellent Healing abilities (funny that!) and good Diplomatic skills (Diplomacy and Sense Motive). It also gets that Unicorn Companion!

So, it suits the needs of a player who mainly wants "just to be there", and who is more interested in the role-playing side of the game than the combat.

Cheers!