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Miniatures/Grids/Tactics and In-Character Combat

el-remmen said:
But that's why we're human, so we can know when there are instances when the rules need to be fudged to let something that makes sense happen, like two people attacking or moving at the same time. :D
Tell that to my DM....well, my ex-DM now; I've left that game - not over that issue, but to allow me time to start my own new game. Puck drop is Sunday.

Lanefan
 

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el-remmen said:
This means there is no delay while people are polled about what should be done, and no one can start giving broad suggestions. On your action you do what your character would do, that's it. Part of that might include calling suggests (or orders) to others, but if there is any expectation about it being done, it is an in-character one. If you want to wait to hear what someone suggests then you delay (or ready an action if possible). However, this also means that intelligent opponents that understand your language might hear and react to the suggestions being yelled across the battlefield. In addition, when as DM the PCs are facing organized intelligent foes, I have to make sure I have them call out to each other for help and suggestions.

(. . .)

Anyway, I was curious. Does anyone else play this way?


When I have groups that can handle this type of play, I always prefer it. Much more exciting and fast paced.
 

I think that the use of a grid an miniatures is only really a problem for games where the space to set up your game is at a premium. If you have a smaller than ideal table, using the grid will result in very cramped gaming, with no space to set down books.

While I do not use the rules that el-remmen uses regarding 'back seat gaming', I do use a grid and minis for my game. I have had no problems with things being slowed down by people trying to work out exactly how they ought to move or position themselves or spell effects.

In my experience, the use of the Miniatures solves more problems than it causes. Off the top of my head, here are problems that could legitimately be caused by using minis.

- Added cost of Mini's and battle mat: Possibly significant. If you want real minis available for each player and a decent number of humanoid combatants, you would want about 20.

- Space concerns: If your gaming table is small, creating an open space on a table already crowded with players, books, the DM Screen and Notes, and snacks is a pain in the arse.

- Extra clean up: Most people have to put their crap away after the game.

- Tactical Overthinking: The positioning of the minis may eat up more time

Here are the problems that the Minis solve in my experience
- No position arguments, less use of Fiat: Any dispute about combat positioning is resolved.

- The rules become easier to use: When I am not using minis, rules for cover, high ground advantage, difficult terrain, and Squeezing into a narrow space simply never get used. The rules for reach and AoO actually become reasonable to use.

- Players will do more things in combat: When gaming without minis, combat really is just 'I move over to the big guy and attack'. With a grid and whatever terrain I put into play, skills such as Balance, Climb, Swim, and Jump might actually come into play during combat.

- Heavy Armor is actually a tradeoff: Without minis, the difference between movement 20 and movement 30 is not significant. But with the grid in use, those over armoured tank players can be made to pay for wearing heavy armour.

- Ranged Combat is more effective: I have found that players who might not bother with ranged combat in some circumstances will actually use a bow once in a while. Those that actually prefer to use their bow will often get more use out of it before being forced into melee. Also, an archer with Mv 30 presents a real problem for a heavily armoured opponent with move 20.

- Tactical Play is actually fun: Players will try to set up flanks. They will helpfully point out when you provoke an AoO with one of your combatants. If they are being shot at, they will take cover.

To sum up, when i am using a grid, the rules that cause some of the most vocal complaints, (Movement AoO's), are not very difficult to use. Combat will move faster with no arguments about positioning. Spells like Fireball, while still devastating, usually wont hit more then 4 opponents at a time in practice. I have found my players are more engaged in combat, and more likely to do something other than say 'I attack'.

END COMMUNICATION
 


I don't. I'd be interested to hear from your players what their take is on it. You're describing an immersive experience with rules to increase the immersion. I think that's cool. I also think that many groups aren't mature enough to handle that. Wait, that's perhaps insulting. I think many groups want to win, and would chafe under these rules. I'd be interested to play in a game with these rules to see how it goes because there are neat ideas in there.
 

I have alerted my players as to the existence of this thread, so maybe one or more will swing by and give their opinion.

I will add that I occasionally will allow for exceptions, for example - if a character with an 18 intelligence is about to make a bonehead move, sometimes someone will ask for an "18 intelligence moment" - i.e. permission to point out something that should be obvious, etc. . And depending on how chaotic the battle scene is or whether I agree I allow it or don't.

Not one of us are really sticklers for the rules. I mean, we want to follow the rules and our house rules as consistently as possible, but I think all of us understand the necessity at times to bend or break the rules sometimes to keep things moving and fun.

I'm probably the biggest stickler, but then again, I am the DM. ;)
 

el-remmens rules seemed to me to be more aimed at enforcing good table manners and expediting play rather than creating an immersive experience. I suppose however that the rules could accomplish both.

At my games, we are not huge sticklers for role playing based on the stats of the characters. I sometimes get comments / complaints when I have dire rats maneuver to take advantage of flanking, but I have since dialed it back a bit.

Ultimately, I suggest only using as many table rules as you need to insure that everyone present enjoys the game.

END COMMUNICATION
 



blargney the second said:
I'm going to try this out in tonight's session. I'll let you know how it goes!
-blarg

Awesome! Please do!

I'm subscribing to this thread so I shall be alerted when you report back. :cool:
 

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