Miniatures/Grids/Tactics and In-Character Combat

[blargney the second]

As with any innovation, it was met with some initial resistance and no small amount of grumbling. I think once they get used to it, it will speed things up. There were a few times when I definitely noticed parts of the fights going faster.

 

[el-remmen]

As with any innovation, it was met with some initial resistance and no small amount of grumbling. I think once they get used to it, it will speed things up. There were a few times when I definitely noticed parts of the fights going faster.

Cool. Be sure to come back and post again when and if you and your group get a chance to get used to it.

 

[Martin Olarin]

I've played in El-Rem's games for over 6 years now and find any negatives of this system (co-ordinating a groups efforts - just read his SH on our attempt to use the Pyrotechnics spell) are far outweighed by the positives. The combination of using the map/minis, keeping conversation to what can be said quickly and keeping IC makes combat what it should be - exciting and somewhere where some weird stuff happens; just recently I had a lot of fun trying to get into position to cast spells along the edge of a silence spell in multi-level terrain. I find it important that the combats are a vehicle for continuing the rping as compared to going into some kind of mode where everyone is going OOC and focusing on getting the battle over with.

 

[SavageRobby]

I've been using minis and a battlemat - drawn, then later printed (2d) or assembled (3d) - for a good 6-7 years now, and haven't had any real issues with it. We started with 3x, and then moved to Savage Worlds as the complexity of 3x wore on us. So note that most of my experience, and all of my recent experience, has been with SW.

That said, we use some of the same rules at the table. We mostly limit IC conversation, especially during tactical time, to a player's turn only, and this actually works pretty well. Once the players got used to it (and it was more a habit thing than a rules thing for my group), that part was pretty smooth. The card-based initiative system in Savage Worlds helps reinforce this, since the initiative shifts every turn and helps simulate the chaotic feel of a battlefield.

I haven't had much issue with my players and square counting or template finagling, but I like the additional rules around those, and will keep them in my back pocket in case that ever starts happening. In general, my players are way more about the general fun of getting together and playing, and less about optimizing characters or encounters (they are definitely not wargamers at the table). Heck, I don't even think all of the players have even read the Savage Worlds rules cover to cover, and they're a quick read. Of course, that allows me to play fast and loose with the rules when it suits the mood or story, and from a DM's perspective, that isn't a bad thing.

I've found that the minis and terrain really do enhance the gaming experience. I know some might not like it, but for me and our group, its really helped speed up the game (not the reverse), and help us visualize things better. I've had a number of my players tell me how much they like using the minis and terrain. The only complaint I've heard from my group around the use of minis and terrain when when we first started and I used a lot of 3D terrain - the minis and fingers and such didn't fit very well inside the 3D walls. So I started using more 2D terrain with 3D props.

 

[el-remmen]

Well, it looks like at least one other group plays similarly.

 

[Cyronax]

With 4e a coming, I think I will employ some of what el-remmen mentioned. In my house rules/campaign document it'll probably be listed like this in the etiquette and game-flow section:

Etiquette during Battle
In the name of character immersion, the standing rule at in my game is that during a combat round a character can only say short sentences or phrases of 5-10 words as a free action. To speak at greater length that will require a minor action on that character’s turn. These rules will apply to NPCs as well, and during battle organized intelligent foes will also be sure to call out to one another for help and suggestions during battle. Additionally, it is incumbent on the players to let one another act on their own accord and not attempt to dictate one course of action during combat. Out of character talk is allowed, so long as it’s not meta-gaming related.

Etiquette and Other Issues
All tactical planning and distribution of looted treasure must be done in character. Following these guidelines will hopefully keep combat moving and reduce out of character discussions.



My group gets bogged down by the Bard/Marshal character constantly trying to move other player's characters into optimal position (for flank) and the player magic item crafter/party accountant taking meta-game lead of equipment/loot discussions.

C.I.D.

 

[Kishin]

I don't mind tactical discussion in combat, so long as it doesn't hold up the flow of events too much (and I am quick to hurry things along when it starts to lag). Adventuring parties have had a lot of experience working together, and there's an implicit knowledge of cooperative tactics that from a logistical standpoint is sometimes better conveyed in this manner, IMO. Not everyone takes into account the abilities of the rest of the party, and since 4E heavily emphasizes working together...

Ironically, I've had more success enforcing a playstyle similar to El-remmen's in Shadowrun, rather than D&D. Don't ask me why.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Ironically, I've had more success enforcing a playstyle similar to El-remmen's in Shadowrun, rather than D&D. Don't ask me why.

Funnily, I've made similar experiences during my two or three Shadowrun games I've run and/or played.

Something is in D&D, that makes people into ruleslawyers, in D&D, I'm seeing player-vs.-DM (and vice versa) much more often than in other games, like GURPS, Shadowrun or Savage Worlds.

I'm wondering why. :/

Cheers, LT.

 

[theskyfullofdust]

I never really used miniatures much until 3ed came along, other than to show marching orders or when we needed to be certain where a character was standing; but we did scribble on pieces of paper or player-drawn maps to position characters, which isn't really that much different.

I think the key is to make everyone describe what they're doing, before they move their miniature; helps to fix the scene in the imagination.

Still, I do think using mini's can slow things down when setting up maps, especially if you're using a laminated grid and a marker, drawing the room. Then, if you are using alternative figures for monsters (say, a goblin mini to represent a manticore) that can break down the imagination barriers, taking away some of the scenery in your mind's eye.

But I do like the tactical aspect of using mini's and maps, so long as you do it in character (something that I always do and generally get into trouble for, since my PCs tend to be not the best tactians).