Minion Fist Fights

Wormwood

Adventurer
Cadfan said:
No, the problem is that you're assuming that "minion" is a characteristic of the identified NPC, rather than a characteristic of the relationship between the identified NPC and the PCs.
What Cadfan said.
 

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Daniel D. Fox

Explorer
It is entirely ridiculous to assume that a missed burst or blast that does half damage would not kill a minion.

I can already see that I'm going to have to houserule this, until WotC can provide any better reason NOT to.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
They get into a fight with each other. When some guy hits another guy with a chair or beer mug, does that guy automatically die?

Doesn't 4e have nonlethal damage at all?

I mean, there's a lot of bar fights where normal people go down in one solid punch. I've really got no problem having that happen. They're usually not dead, but they're not in "fighting shape" anymore, and I'm pretty happy with 0 hp representing "no longer a credible threat." Nonlethal damage represents that pretty okay.

Cadfan said:
No, the problem is that you're assuming that "minion" is a characteristic of the identified NPC, rather than a characteristic of the relationship between the identified NPC and the PCs.

Your problem is in assuming that this is a "problem."

It's not.

It's a playstyle preference.

You can't "fix" it.
 


Cadfan

First Post
Kamikaze Midget said:
Your problem is in assuming that this is a "problem."

It's not.

It's a playstyle preference.

You can't "fix" it.
No, it wasn't. It was a flaw in comprehension.

It was a "playstyle preference" in about the same way that this is: "I don't understand how the 4e Ranger works. I can't find anything at all about masks, silver revolvers, training your horse, or having native american sidekicks."

Nice try though.
 

Mort_Q

First Post
Moniker said:
It is entirely ridiculous to assume that a missed burst or blast that does half damage would not kill a minion.

It is entirely ridiculous to award a kill to a PC that missed their attack roll.
 

Cirex

First Post
After the first encounter at the Raiders of Oakhurst module, I told my players that minions only had 1 HP, but high attack ratings and a fixed amount of damage, for simplicity.

So, after 5 minutes of joking about it "So he tripped and died" "He sneezed and died" "Hey, if he gets hit for too long by the Sun, does he die" and etc.

Ah well...
 

scrubkai

Explorer
Moniker said:
It is entirely ridiculous to assume that a missed burst or blast that does half damage would not kill a minion.

I can already see that I'm going to have to houserule this, until WotC can provide any better reason NOT to.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you here...
Typically in 3.x when I run a large fight with large amounts of minor bad guys (minions), if someone drops a high level AoE on them, they all get a save.
Failed save: They join the dead pile.
Made Save: They stay on the board badly wounded. (At this point they are one shot kills for anyone, including any weak AoE attack someone has)

So it normally takes one AoE attack to clear 75% of the minor characters from the board. And it takes a second AoE to fully clear the board.

I find that it makes the players feel like they are very powerful, while still offering the sense of risk that a few of the minor bad guys might survive and close on the squishy mage/psion.

I find it interesting that 4E is doing something close to this as part of their core rules.

Of course I also have minor bad guys run if their leaders/too many of them are slain and I'm going to guess that isn't going to be part of the core rules.
 

ShinRyuuBR

First Post
Mort_Q said:
It is entirely ridiculous to award a kill to a PC that missed their attack roll.

Is it? Ridiculous to me is if a minion would have 15 HP, if you cared to track it (defeating the whole purpose of labeling it a minion), while you deal 40 damage on a hit, 20 on a miss, and because minions only take damage on a hit, you can miss him 3 times, which would deal 60 points of damage, but it doesn't die.
 

fuzzlewump

First Post
Moniker said:
It is entirely ridiculous to assume that a missed burst or blast that does half damage would not kill a minion.

I can already see that I'm going to have to houserule this, until WotC can provide any better reason NOT to.
I think the idea is that minions don't explode when you barely tap them, it's that a well placed hit from a PC will always kill them. A miss, including damage made on a miss, isn't defined as a well placed hit, so it doesn't kill them. The real issue is that they are balanced on only being killed when an attack beats their defenses; if damage on a miss killed them they might have to give minions more HP at higher levels and that ruins the point of minions all together. If you house rule anything, just take out minions.
 

JesterOC

Explorer
Moniker said:
It is entirely ridiculous to assume that a missed burst or blast that does half damage would not kill a minion.

What is so ridiculous, THEY HAVE JUST ONE HIT POINT! They need that rule to make sure they are not worthless, just mostly worthless.

Having just one hitpoint makes their defenses the most important aspect of their ability to survive. Half damage on miss effects completely negate the ONLY bit of defense they have. Thus they have special cased the hit point to make sure Only hits effect them.

"Minons don't take damage on a miss" does not equal "Minons take damage on a hit"

JesterOC
 

keterys

First Post
I'd mostly assume that people in a bar fight aren't doing much actual hp damage, anyways.

I mean, most people pull their punch rather than do lethal force ;)
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Moniker said:
It is entirely ridiculous to assume that a missed burst or blast that does half damage would not kill a minion.

I can already see that I'm going to have to houserule this, until WotC can provide any better reason NOT to.

I'd say it is because then minions become very little threat to a party that has access to "damage on miss" effects. We already know that the fighter has access to at least one of these, to say nothing of the casters such as wizard and cleric. It's at least somewhat safe to assume that most if not all classes will get "damage on miss" effects at some point in their powers. It's your game, but if you houserule that minions die from missed half damage attacks, players that use their half damage attacks often, will kill minions regardless of what their attack roll is.

To illustrate using an extreme example (and yes, I realize that extreme examples are often inaccurate, but I'm simply using it because it best illustrates my example) a level 1 character with a half damage on miss attack could kill a level 30 minion without having to roll to hit. By comparison, if the minion is immune to the half damage miss, the same level 1 character will need a nat 20 to kill it.

There's nothing to say that the minions aren't damaged by such attacks (scorched by a fireball or a flesh wound from a sword), they just aren't killed by the attack and MECHANICALLY haven't been harmed.

In response to the barfight question, I'd narrate that the minions are able to trade a few punches with each other, but get knocked out cold if a PC (or non-minion NPC) hits them. If a minion is dominated by a PC and attacks another minion, hitting him, he knocks the guy out. If minions on two sides of a battlefield exchange volleys of arrow fire, a lot of them are going to die (assuming that they can hit each other). IMO.
 

I don't know how best to handle situations where a PC uses a power that deals damage on a miss. Yes, it's annoying to say that he wasted that power, but...

Usually powers that deal damage on a miss are dailies, are they not? That's sort of a safety net of usefulness that they don't bother with for at-wills and per-encounters. If you actually blow a daily power on a minion enemy, you don't deserve that safety net.

I can only see three possibilities as to why a PC would use a daily power on a minion:
1) You're an idiot who blows powerful abilities for no reason. Try again.
2) You didn't realize it was a minion. There's a bunch of them and you should be more careful.
3) You're trying to exploit the game by dealing guaranteed damage to a minion that is far too high-leveled for you. Cover your face, because your DM is about to beat you with a rulebook.

Really, these are all so unlikely that it hardly matters. The "minions don't take damage from a missed attack" bit is only there to prevent case #3. Just go with it: "A mighty hit, sure, but the thing survives. Even minions get lucky."
 

ShinRyuuBR

First Post
What is so ridiculous, THEY HAVE JUST ONE HIT POINT!

Not so. Level 1 minions might have 1 HP. I can take a level 5 elite creature with 20 HP and use it as a level 30 minion. Just because I don't bother with how much HP it actually has does not mean every minion from 1st to 30th level has just 1 HP. Minion is not a condition, it is a label that depends on the creature's enemies' level.
 

Storm-Bringer

First Post
Mort_Q said:
It is entirely ridiculous to award a kill to a PC that missed their attack roll.
No more ridiculous than assuming that a missed attack roll will still do any damage at all.

In this case, it means that minions have a variable number of hit points. (odds to hit)% of the time, they have 1hp, but (odds to miss)% of the time, they have infinite hit points.

An example:

Fighter attacks a minion. the 'to hit' roll needs to be 15 or better, so 85% of the time, the minion is hit and killed. 15% of the time, the fighter will miss, and regardless of the effects of a miss from a power the minion will not die. Even if the power does some kind of splash damage on a miss, the minion lives. No matter how many times the miss effect triggers.
 

JesterOC

Explorer
ShinRyuuBR said:
Not so. Level 1 minions might have 1 HP. I can take a level 5 elite creature with 20 HP and use it as a level 30 minion. Just because I don't bother with how much HP it actually has does not mean every minion from 1st to 30th level has just 1 HP. Minion is not a condition, it is a label that depends on the creature's enemies' level.

So where is the monster sheet with a 20 hp minon with the words 'Minon does not take damage on a miss'? Have a link?

JesterOC

Edit: Just to be clear I am not saying all minons have 1 hit point, we have seen that before. What I am saying is that the Orc Minors have one hit point with a special rule note attached. Unless the 20 hp minors have the same special rule, then they take damage on a miss. If the rules were so that all minons did not take damage on a miss they would not have added the special rule on the orc sheet. This implies that 20 hp minons don't have the miss = safe rule.
 
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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Wormwood said:
The attacker determines whether the last blow kills or KO's, right?

If that's not the rule, it should be.

Neat. If it's NOT the rule, I might use that. I like it. :)

Cadfan said:
No, it wasn't. It was a flaw in comprehension.
Sure, then, if you've got chapter and verse where minions are written into the rules as a "relationship," I'll be happy to hear it.

Heck, if you can even give me some designer commentary that points to that, I might cede that you have a point.

Otherwise, you're just being needlessly condescending.

It was a "playstyle preference" in about the same way that this is: "I don't understand how the 4e Ranger works. I can't find anything at all about masks, silver revolvers, training your horse, or having native american sidekicks."
That's not so much a flaw in comprehension as it is a straw man.

Nice try though.
Likewise.
 

Daniel D. Fox

Explorer
Mort_Q said:
It is entirely ridiculous to award a kill to a PC that missed their attack roll.

Keep in mind attack rolls are not only for weapons, but for spells as well.

Minions can ignore half damage and live but foes with HP reserves can take damage and be killed by the same mechanic (damage on a miss). The mechanic invalidates your entire point.

This has to be an oversight.
 


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