Minion Fist Fights

ShinRyuuBR said:
Not so. Level 1 minions might have 1 HP. I can take a level 5 elite creature with 20 HP and use it as a level 30 minion. Just because I don't bother with how much HP it actually has does not mean every minion from 1st to 30th level has just 1 HP. Minion is not a condition, it is a label that depends on the creature's enemies' level.
Actually, the two Orc Minions previewed today both have 1 HP. One's level 4, the other is level 9. I'm hazarding a guess that all minions have 1 HP.
 

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ShinRyuuBR

First Post
So where is the monster sheet with a 20 hp minon with the words 'Minon does not take damage on a miss'? Have a link?

Check again, I'm not defending this "infinite HP on miss" stuff. But neither am I assuming all minions have just 1 HP.

I don't have the link, but you can check around that normal monsters with more than a dozen HP have become minions to higher-level PCs. Things could have changed, but Keith Baker reported that any monster can become a minion depending on the difference between its level and the PC's, and the philosophy is that you don't want to keep track of HP. If the stats bring "HP: 1" for all minions, than this hit/miss discussion is moot, and the fact remains that is a construct to represent the intended game result. Its not that you get to level 30 and suddenly all bone devils have 1 HP, it's just that the multiple HP they DO have is pointless against the PCs.
 

Cadfan

First Post
Kamikaze Midget said:
Sure, then, if you've got chapter and verse where minions are written into the rules as a "relationship," I'll be happy to hear it.

Heck, if you can even give me some designer commentary that points to that, I might cede that you have a point.
Ah, I see the tactic. Proclaim that I am wrong because I cannot cite chapter and verse, even though you agree with me on the substantive point I was making about the nature of minions. See everything you personally wrote in the orc thread for reference.

Anyways, no chapter and verse, obviously, but the good money is on monsters that start out as regular monsters turning into minions as you reach higher levels. See "legion devil" versus "legion devil legionnaire" for reference.

In the meantime, not everything is a playstyle. "Believes the rules of the game are laws of physics even when told they aren't and when playing a game where they can't be" is not a playstyle. It is an error. Preferring that the rules of the game be laws of physics would be a playstyle. Belief that they are when they are not is just being wrong.

Edited to add- my lazy butt gets an assist from the post before this one, where someone DOES quote chapter and verse.
 

JesterOC

Explorer
ShinRyuuBR said:
Check again, I'm not defending this "infinite HP on miss" stuff. But neither am I assuming all minions have just 1 HP.

I don't have the link, but you can check around that normal monsters with more than a dozen HP have become minions to higher-level PCs. Things could have changed, but Keith Baker reported that any monster can become a minion depending on the difference between its level and the PC's, and the philosophy is that you don't want to keep track of HP. If the stats bring "HP: 1" for all minions, than this hit/miss discussion is moot, and the fact remains that is a construct to represent the intended game result. Its not that you get to level 30 and suddenly all bone devils have 1 HP, it's just that the multiple HP they DO have is pointless against the PCs.

I agree. I think that the whole Miss = Safe only applies to 1 hit point minos. Just a guess of course. As is most of this.
 

ShinRyuuBR

First Post
Sure, then, if you've got chapter and verse where minions are written into the rules as a "relationship," I'll be happy to hear it.

Heck, if you can even give me some designer commentary that points to that, I might cede that you have a point.

It's impossible to keep track of everything, but it should be fairly easy to google Keith Baker's little blog essays on this matter. Heck, he might even stumble upon this thread and confirm it himself (based on his playtesting experience, of course).
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Would it be any more agreeable to some if minion was a template that dropped a creature's XP Value to 1/4, it's hp to 1, and granted it the 4e equivalent of evasion?

Not being sarcastic or any such thing, just offering up an alternative way of looking at it.

Personally, I think that minions will always have 1 hp (and pseudo-evasion). It allows the DM to throw vast hordes of enemies at the players without having to worry about having to track all those hps.

My DM recently ran a heavily houseruled 3.5 campaign (zombies) that was designed for exactly that (pitting us against large hordes of zombies, that is), and he had a nightmare of a time tracking their hps. I think our largest fight had around 120 zombies on the table at once. Considering that he's 10 times the DM that I'll ever be, I doubt I'd be able to use the minion rules to their full potential if they weren't as written. Tracking the individual hps and location of each and every zombie in a horde like that... he despised our sorcerer by the time the campaign ended.
 

Daniel D. Fox

Explorer
It simply doesn't make sense for with HP reserves to take damage and potentially die from a missed roll whereas Minions can ignore ANY damage on a missed roll all together.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Cadfan said:
Proclaim that I am wrong because I cannot cite chapter and verse, even though you agree with me on the substantive point I was making about the nature of minions.
Telling someone that they're "wrong" is unnecessarily condescending if you can't back it up.

For isntance, this post:
ShinRyuuBR said:
I don't have the link, but you can check around that normal monsters with more than a dozen HP have become minions to higher-level PCs. Things could have changed, but Keith Baker reported that any monster can become a minion depending on the difference between its level and the PC's, and the philosophy is that you don't want to keep track of HP. If the stats bring "HP: 1" for all minions, than this hit/miss discussion is moot, and the fact remains that is a construct to represent the intended game result. Its not that you get to level 30 and suddenly all bone devils have 1 HP, it's just that the multiple HP they DO have is pointless against the PCs.
backs it up nicely.

Cadfan said:
Anyways, no chapter and verse, obviously, but the good money is on monsters that start out as regular monsters turning into minions as you reach higher levels. See "legion devil" versus "legion devil legionnaire" for reference.
This also works. ;)

Meanwhile...
Cadfan said:
"Believes the rules of the game are laws of physics even when told they aren't and when playing a game where they can't be" is not a playstyle.
No one said anything about rules being physics. You said he had a problem because of an incorrect assumption. I challenged the notion that that assumption was incorrect. You and ShinryuuBR backed it up. I'm mollified.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Moniker said:
It simply doesn't make sense for with HP reserves to take damage and potentially die from a missed roll whereas Minions can ignore ANY damage on a missed roll all together.

I encourage you to look at the monster hps in 4e. While a monster with hp reserves could die from a half damage attack, it would mean that it was being beaten on for quite some time.

IMO, if you were to use a houserule regarding minions, I daresay the one that someone suggested earlier in this thread (at least I think it was this thread) that no creature can be killed by dmg on miss would be significantly more balanced.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Korgoth said:
When minions get in fist fights with one another... do they all just die? I'm being serious.

The way 4e works the rules only work on the assumption that one of the participants in the action is a PC.

The implication of this is that they tell you nothing about what happens when an NPC fights an NPC, and as such you must either use different rules or wing it.

The 4e edition rule for what happens when minions get in a fist fight is 'what ever you want'.

The corrolary is, 'If you care what happens, then the NPC isn't a minion.'

The corrolary of that is that giving an NPC a name transforms them from a minion into something else, possibly with accompanying loss of level but at least now they have hit points.
 

Nikosandros

Golden Procrastinator
ShinRyuuBR said:
Is it? Ridiculous to me is if a minion would have 15 HP, if you cared to track it (defeating the whole purpose of labeling it a minion), while you deal 40 damage on a hit, 20 on a miss, and because minions only take damage on a hit, you can miss him 3 times, which would deal 60 points of damage, but it doesn't die.
If you are willing to deal with some extra bookkeeping, you might put a wounded marker next to a minion that has taken damage on a miss. A wounded minion that is wounded again dies.
 

Korgoth

First Post
Celebrim said:
The way 4e works the rules only work on the assumption that one of the participants in the action is a PC.

The implication of this is that they tell you nothing about what happens when an NPC fights an NPC, and as such you must either use different rules or wing it.

The 4e edition rule for what happens when minions get in a fist fight is 'what ever you want'.

The corrolary is, 'If you care what happens, then the NPC isn't a minion.'

The corrolary of that is that giving an NPC a name transforms them from a minion into something else, possibly with accompanying loss of level but at least now they have hit points.

So D&D is now officially a Forge game?

If so, it is a sad day.
 

pawsplay

Banned
Banned
Celebrim said:
The corrolary of that is that giving an NPC a name transforms them from a minion into something else, possibly with accompanying loss of level but at least now they have hit points.

So how does that reduce my prep time?
 

Irda Ranger

First Post
Moniker said:
It simply doesn't make sense for with HP reserves to take damage and potentially die from a missed roll whereas Minions can ignore ANY damage on a missed roll all together.
I feel the same. I can already tell Minions are going to be a problem for me, conceptually.

I think I'm going to say though that "Minions never take damage on a miss from :ranged: or :bmelee: attacks"; the corollary being that they do take damage from "missed" :area: or :close: effects. I mean, if they're in the area they're in the area. Anything else might hurt my brain.
 

ZetaStriker

First Post
ShinRyuuBR said:
Check again, I'm not defending this "infinite HP on miss" stuff. But neither am I assuming all minions have just 1 HP.

I don't have the link, but you can check around that normal monsters with more than a dozen HP have become minions to higher-level PCs. Things could have changed, but Keith Baker reported that any monster can become a minion depending on the difference between its level and the PC's, and the philosophy is that you don't want to keep track of HP. If the stats bring "HP: 1" for all minions, than this hit/miss discussion is moot, and the fact remains that is a construct to represent the intended game result. Its not that you get to level 30 and suddenly all bone devils have 1 HP, it's just that the multiple HP they DO have is pointless against the PCs.

I don't think you're entirely correct... we know for a fact that the monsters wont be used as is when their level is tripled and they're made into a minion. The math just wouldn't work, nor would they function the way a minion is supposed to. Their attack bonus would need to rise, as well as their defenses, their damage would need to become a set amount(which seems level, and not ability, dependent, judging from the orcs), and in all likelihood, their HP would drop to 1. It's just the way minions are supposed to be. Normal monsters are the ones taking multiple hits, minions come in swarms and all the rules applied to them are in place to make such large encounters easily manageable. Having HP you'd have to keep track of flies in the face of that, and although you could say 'oh, they die in one hit anyway', there no guarantee of that, and if you're going to assume that, their HP might as well be 1 to begin with.
 

Irda Ranger

First Post
Celebrim said:
The way 4e works the rules only work on the assumption that one of the participants in the action is a PC.

The implication of this is that they tell you nothing about what happens when an NPC fights an NPC, and as such you must either use different rules or wing it.
I really hope that when we get the rules we can point to this as an example of "Good Guess, But Wrong." I'm OK with some gamist shortcuts, but you can take it too far. This is too far.

The Minions rules better be really good, or else they'll be dropped in the "needs a house rule" bucket.
 

Scribble

First Post
Personally I think people are thinking too hard about minions...

They're not supposed to be challenges. They're just the mindless zombie like dweebs that yell out stuff like DIE and EAT MY SHORTS before the PCs kill them.

They don't really have 1 HP.

How many do they have? It doesn't matter because chances are you won't miss them more then once or twice at the most.

I'm guessing that unlike BBEG who's ability to be hit will be a challenge, actually missing a minion will be more of a challenge then hitting them...

They're just the gullible fools the big bad guy uses to suck up attacks meant for him. Meat Shields.
 

habaal

First Post
Wait a minute, who said ALL minions have 1 HP? Is it certified?
I don't know if it was a fan-made Minion or a previewd one, but I certainly saw a minion with higher HP at a higher level. If this isn't the case, It's badly designed.
Why shouldn't a mook's HP scale like all the rest, in a way that pretty much ensures an appropriate level PC will slay it in one hit most of the times, while a lower level PC would find it a bit difficult?
Unless the designers want a 1st level halfling rogue with a stick to kill a 27th level Demonswarm minion with a well placed stabbing in the eye(s). ;)

Actually, if a hit by that perticular minion will kill the PC as well, maybe it's OK and acceptable, if only a bit awkward.
 

Irda Ranger

First Post
I know this is my third post before anyone's replied to the first, ... but I can't help myself.

ZetaStriker said:
I don't think you're entirely correct... we know for a fact that the monsters wont be used as is when their level is tripled and they're made into a minion. The math just wouldn't work, nor would they function the way a minion is supposed to. Their attack bonus would need to rise, as well as their defenses, their damage would need to become a set amount(which seems level, and not ability, dependent, judging from the orcs), and in all likelihood, their HP would drop to 1.
I wonder if there's a way to do this "backwards", but starting with a Level 4 Minion and turning him into a Level 1 Brute?


ZetaStriker said:
It's just the way minions are supposed to be. Normal monsters are the ones taking multiple hits, minions come in swarms and all the rules applied to them are in place to make such large encounters easily manageable. Having HP you'd have to keep track of flies in the face of that, and although you could say 'oh, they die in one hit anyway', there no guarantee of that, and if you're going to assume that, their HP might as well be 1 to begin with.
So, really this is just the DMG saying to the DM "So, you want a Boromir at the Falls of Rauros momemnt? Here you go."? That's nice, thematically, but I still have the problem of thinking "Why are all these dudes glass ninjas?" I feel like there should be a solution that isn't so blatant about the fact that "This world is a game; it doesn't exist." I want to feel that the world does exist, and that I'm just visiting it for a while. Blatantly gamist rules like this really break my s.o.d.
 

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