Minion Fist Fights

[BarkingDeathSquirrel]

Not so. Level 1 minions might have 1 HP. I can take a level 5 elite creature with 20 HP and use it as a level 30 minion. Just because I don't bother with how much HP it actually has does not mean every minion from 1st to 30th level has just 1 HP. Minion is not a condition, it is a label that depends on the creature's enemies' level.

Actually, the two Orc Minions previewed today both have 1 HP. One's level 4, the other is level 9. I'm hazarding a guess that all minions have 1 HP.

 

[Mort_Q]

It is not an oversight, it is a feature.

This.

 

[ShinRyuuBR]

So where is the monster sheet with a 20 hp minon with the words 'Minon does not take damage on a miss'? Have a link?

Check again, I'm not defending this "infinite HP on miss" stuff. But neither am I assuming all minions have just 1 HP.

I don't have the link, but you can check around that normal monsters with more than a dozen HP have become minions to higher-level PCs. Things could have changed, but Keith Baker reported that any monster can become a minion depending on the difference between its level and the PC's, and the philosophy is that you don't want to keep track of HP. If the stats bring "HP: 1" for all minions, than this hit/miss discussion is moot, and the fact remains that is a construct to represent the intended game result. Its not that you get to level 30 and suddenly all bone devils have 1 HP, it's just that the multiple HP they DO have is pointless against the PCs.

 

[Cadfan]

Sure, then, if you've got chapter and verse where minions are written into the rules as a "relationship," I'll be happy to hear it.

Heck, if you can even give me some designer commentary that points to that, I might cede that you have a point.

Ah, I see the tactic. Proclaim that I am wrong because I cannot cite chapter and verse, even though you agree with me on the substantive point I was making about the nature of minions. See everything you personally wrote in the orc thread for reference.

Anyways, no chapter and verse, obviously, but the good money is on monsters that start out as regular monsters turning into minions as you reach higher levels. See "legion devil" versus "legion devil legionnaire" for reference.

In the meantime, not everything is a playstyle. "Believes the rules of the game are laws of physics even when told they aren't and when playing a game where they can't be" is not a playstyle. It is an error. Preferring that the rules of the game be laws of physics would be a playstyle. Belief that they are when they are not is just being wrong.

Edited to add- my lazy butt gets an assist from the post before this one, where someone DOES quote chapter and verse.

 

[JesterOC]

Check again, I'm not defending this "infinite HP on miss" stuff. But neither am I assuming all minions have just 1 HP.

I don't have the link, but you can check around that normal monsters with more than a dozen HP have become minions to higher-level PCs. Things could have changed, but Keith Baker reported that any monster can become a minion depending on the difference between its level and the PC's, and the philosophy is that you don't want to keep track of HP. If the stats bring "HP: 1" for all minions, than this hit/miss discussion is moot, and the fact remains that is a construct to represent the intended game result. Its not that you get to level 30 and suddenly all bone devils have 1 HP, it's just that the multiple HP they DO have is pointless against the PCs.

I agree. I think that the whole Miss = Safe only applies to 1 hit point minos. Just a guess of course. As is most of this.

 

[ShinRyuuBR]

Sure, then, if you've got chapter and verse where minions are written into the rules as a "relationship," I'll be happy to hear it.

Heck, if you can even give me some designer commentary that points to that, I might cede that you have a point.

It's impossible to keep track of everything, but it should be fairly easy to google Keith Baker's little blog essays on this matter. Heck, he might even stumble upon this thread and confirm it himself (based on his playtesting experience, of course).

 

[Fanaelialae]

Would it be any more agreeable to some if minion was a template that dropped a creature's XP Value to 1/4, it's hp to 1, and granted it the 4e equivalent of evasion?

Not being sarcastic or any such thing, just offering up an alternative way of looking at it.

Personally, I think that minions will always have 1 hp (and pseudo-evasion). It allows the DM to throw vast hordes of enemies at the players without having to worry about having to track all those hps.

My DM recently ran a heavily houseruled 3.5 campaign (zombies) that was designed for exactly that (pitting us against large hordes of zombies, that is), and he had a nightmare of a time tracking their hps. I think our largest fight had around 120 zombies on the table at once. Considering that he's 10 times the DM that I'll ever be, I doubt I'd be able to use the minion rules to their full potential if they weren't as written. Tracking the individual hps and location of each and every zombie in a horde like that... he despised our sorcerer by the time the campaign ended.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

It simply doesn't make sense for with HP reserves to take damage and potentially die from a missed roll whereas Minions can ignore ANY damage on a missed roll all together.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Proclaim that I am wrong because I cannot cite chapter and verse, even though you agree with me on the substantive point I was making about the nature of minions.

Telling someone that they're "wrong" is unnecessarily condescending if you can't back it up.

For isntance, this post:

I don't have the link, but you can check around that normal monsters with more than a dozen HP have become minions to higher-level PCs. Things could have changed, but Keith Baker reported that any monster can become a minion depending on the difference between its level and the PC's, and the philosophy is that you don't want to keep track of HP. If the stats bring "HP: 1" for all minions, than this hit/miss discussion is moot, and the fact remains that is a construct to represent the intended game result. Its not that you get to level 30 and suddenly all bone devils have 1 HP, it's just that the multiple HP they DO have is pointless against the PCs.

backs it up nicely.

Anyways, no chapter and verse, obviously, but the good money is on monsters that start out as regular monsters turning into minions as you reach higher levels. See "legion devil" versus "legion devil legionnaire" for reference.

This also works.

Meanwhile...

"Believes the rules of the game are laws of physics even when told they aren't and when playing a game where they can't be" is not a playstyle.

No one said anything about rules being physics. You said he had a problem because of an incorrect assumption. I challenged the notion that that assumption was incorrect. You and ShinryuuBR backed it up. I'm mollified.

 

[Fanaelialae]

It simply doesn't make sense for with HP reserves to take damage and potentially die from a missed roll whereas Minions can ignore ANY damage on a missed roll all together.

I encourage you to look at the monster hps in 4e. While a monster with hp reserves could die from a half damage attack, it would mean that it was being beaten on for quite some time.

IMO, if you were to use a houserule regarding minions, I daresay the one that someone suggested earlier in this thread (at least I think it was this thread) that no creature can be killed by dmg on miss would be significantly more balanced.