Minion Fist Fights

[Lizard]

So, within the orc tribe, you don't have Grik who was born a normal monster and his cousin Grak who was, tragically, born a minion and has only survived to this day by being as obsessive as Thomas Covenant.

But, barring text we haven't seen yet, that is EXACTLY the impression the rules give of how the 4e world works, and THAT is what I cannot wrap my mind around.

But the "4e way" is not seriously putting forth that there are certain identifiable monsters who die when flicked on the nose, so that's rather a silly claim to be using against it.

Why do you draw this conclusion? 'Cause that's exactly the impression I'm getting from the rules I've seen thus far. As opposed to 3x 1HD creatures who have a 'buffer' of 10 negative hit points to keep them from popping like soap bubbles every time they stub their toe, the 4 1hp minion with no healing surges and no negative hit points is a creature so fragile they make a 1e MU look like an action hero.

 

[hong]

But, barring text we haven't seen yet, that is EXACTLY the impression the rules give of how the 4e world works,

It is?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Why do you draw this conclusion? 'Cause that's exactly the impression I'm getting from the rules I've seen thus far. As opposed to 3x 1HD creatures who have a 'buffer' of 10 negative hit points to keep them from popping like soap bubbles every time they stub their toe, the 4 1hp minion with no healing surges and no negative hit points is a creature so fragile they make a 1e MU look like an action hero.

This is a problem with misunderstanding hitpoints. They are entirely a metagame concept that are PC-Centric. They only exist when in combat with the PCs.

A minion can survive 30 stabs to the head if you want it to away from the PCs. When they are fighting it, they just happen to get the lucky blow in and it dies.

The entire purpose of hitpoints is to prevent anti-climactic deaths of important characters. The point of them is to avoid the situation where the PCs get lucky and kill something in one shot. Especially if you've hyped up the creatures/person as extremely dangerous before the PCs face them.

But minions are those monsters you don't care about. They don't need any buffer except what is required for them to fulfill their combat role: be a roadblock for the PCs movement.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

This is a problem with misunderstanding hitpoints. They are entirely a metagame concept that are PC-Centric. They only exist when in combat with the PCs.

Clearly, they don't. They are a measure of how difficult it is to overcome a particular challenge, and they exist independently of the PCs interacting with them or they are meaningless as a measure of anything. A gallon of milk isn't something else when people aren't measuring it.

A minion can survive 30 stabs to the head if you want it to away from the PCs. When they are fighting it, they just happen to get the lucky blow in and it dies.

Except, it isn't a 'lucky blow', because it happens every time the PCs land a successful hit.

The entire purpose of hitpoints is to prevent anti-climactic deaths of important characters. The point of them is to avoid the situation where the PCs get lucky and kill something in one shot. Especially if you've hyped up the creatures/person as extremely dangerous before the PCs face them.

The entire purpose of hit points is to adjudicate the combat mini-game.

But minions are those monsters you don't care about. They don't need any buffer except what is required for them to fulfill their combat role: be a roadblock for the PCs movement.

Then don't use them. It would be as simple to make the terrain more difficult, or to set a trap in their way. Or apply the Random Damage Table until they pass their 'to hit' skill challenge a certain number of times.

 

[Scribble]

I wouldn't mind if "Minion" were a template or option a DM could apply to a generic monster when statting out a fight. That makes it clear that "minion" is a dramatic/narrative label and not a description of a condition which is meaningful in the game world.

What's a "generic orc?" Would that be a skirmisher? a brute? a controller?

Monster's are now made more in line with how pcs work... They ahve a race: Orc and a class: Brute, Controller, Skirmisher...

Minion is a class. It's kind of like a 3e template, in that it changes the powers and abilities of the monster, but different in that it's easier to work with.

Just like when you templated out a monster so it works how you wanted it to, now you can just select a style that fits.

I do mind when the MM presents stat blocks for baseline orcs that make no sense for how the orcs exist in the world outside a fight.

I can't help you with this. It's not realy a problem with the mechanics of the system. The system works well for what it's trying to do. It gives me rules for how to deal with challenges to my PCs brought by the orcs. If my PCs are not in some way trying to stop my Orc from doing something, it can probably do it.

My Orc doesn't have any skills invested in cooking... I'm pretty sure he won't starve. I'm pretty sure he can cook dinner. He might have an issue if he tries to win the title of Top Chef, but starve he will not.

I like the new system. It's something I ham handedly did with the old system, just done btter. The works been done for me.

I also mind when special rules (Minions take no damage on a miss) are ham-handedly jammed into the system as a balance mechanic with no pretense of an explanation beyond "Just 'cause!"

Not ham handed. The math is simplified. You could probably increase the Monster's HP so that he can't survive a direct hit (your PCs average damage will be too much) but he could survive a half damage attack... But why? Chances are the PC won't miss a second time. Why make the DM track more numbers then he has to?

A gallon of milk isn't something else when people aren't measuring it.

Mmmmm... thats a matter of philosophy...

But a galon of milk is a physical object. Hit Points are not.

Then don't use them. It would be as simple to make the terrain more difficult, or to set a trap in their way. Or apply the Random Damage Table until they pass their 'to hit' skill challenge a certain number of times.

Sure... But minions give you options. Options are good. Options allow for more stories to be told.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

Mmmmm... thats a matter of philosophy...
But a galon of milk is a physical object. Hit Points are not.

Well, the milk is a physical object. A gallon is one way of measuring how much is present. There are any number of ways to describe how much milk is present. The philosophical part of your response details exactly whether or not those methods are valid. There are very few philosophical disciplines that concern themselves with whether or not the milk exists.

So, the 'opponent' is a physical object. The 'hit points' are measuring how much 'opponent' is present. There are certainly different ways of measuring how much opponent you have, and other games have different rules for doing so. But a rule that says 'milk only comes in the one gallon size, because it's a thematic device' runs fairly counter to everything else in the rules.

Sure... But minions give you options. Options are good. Options allow for more stories to be told.

As has been said uncountable times before, you don't need rules to tell a story.

 

[TwoSix]

Clearly, they don't. They are a measure of how difficult it is to overcome a particular challenge, and they exist independently of the PCs interacting with them or they are meaningless as a measure of anything. A gallon of milk isn't something else when people aren't measuring it.

But they aren't a measure of anything. That's the point.

Except, it isn't a 'lucky blow', because it happens every time the PCs land a successful hit.

"Lucky blow" probably isn't as good of a term as "final blow". It's perfectly valid to narrate a miss against a minion as a hit against their armor, or a flesh wound, or a blow to the head that sets their ears ringing. The hit is just the attack that actually takes them out of the combat. (And is entirely appropriate to be described as being knocked unconscious, limb lopped off, what have you).

 

[TwoSix]

As has been said uncountable times before, you don't need rules to tell a story.

However, you need rules to play a role-playing game, to define the conflict resolution between the players and the DM. You don't need rules to define the imagined game space that contains no conflict between the players and the DM.

 

[Scribble]

Well, the milk is a physical object. A gallon is one way of measuring how much is present. There are any number of ways to describe how much milk is present. The philosophical part of your response details exactly whether or not those methods are valid. There are very few philosophical disciplines that concern themselves with whether or not the milk exists.

So, the 'opponent' is a physical object. The 'hit points' are measuring how much 'opponent' is present. There are certainly different ways of measuring how much opponent you have, and other games have different rules for doing so. But a rule that says 'milk only comes in the one gallon size, because it's a thematic device' runs fairly counter to everything else in the rules.

Yes... there are a number of ways. Just like 2/6th of a galon = 1/3 of a gallon.

Minion rules are pretty much the same. Simpliied math.

As has been said uncountable times before, you don't need rules to tell a story.

I do when the story is at a point that is interacting with my PCs.

Sure I could say a bunch of minions run up and hold you guys off doing about 10 damage to you James, while Evil Orcy McEvilton runs away down the halway after tossing off a 30 pioint damage ball...

But I think my players would be a little annoyed... It's the same reason we "need" rules for combat in the first place.

 

[Aenghus]

I think monsters in 4e will call for different stat blocks in different contexts. An orc guard may be fully statted out against a low level party, and be a mere minion against a higher level party. Same orc, different purpose, different stats.

This is because they have changed what the stats represent in 4e. Now they are far more of an aid to the DM to help him run the game as easily as possible, not some sort of visualisation of the cosmic all.

A number of years ago I would have hated this idea. However, I recently finished a 6+ year 3e campaign, and am heartily sick of statting up NPCs, assigning magic items, spells etc. I am willing to countenance anything that makes this process easier.

And as a player I just miss the old-school pleasure of fireballing a bunch of orcs and killing most of them with one spell.