Minion House Rules

[Soel]

Looking at having a few "two-hit" minions, myself, just to shake the cage a little. They probably should have done them in regards to number of hits instead of using 1 hit point.

Another option I am considering is duration-based minions. Basically, ones that last a fixed amount of rounds, and if hit after that time (or possibly during,) they die.

 

[ImperialParadox]

I took the time today to crunch some numbers. First I came up with a chart showing the presumed average damage for a wizard's Scorching Burst power as well the average damage for the best minion-clearing encounter power available to a wizard level by level.

When I calculated the wizard's damage, I assumed a starting Intelligence of 18, which was increased at every available chance. I also assumed the wizard got a +1 implement by level two, and that he upgraded/replaced said implement with a better version at levels 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25.

Next, I took these values and compared them to the results of different MDT formulas I was kicking around.

Originally, I was trying to utilize a minion's Constitution modifier in the formula for MDT. This method took into account the hardiness of the monster, but it was also a bit more complicated to calculate. In the end I decided that what I wanted was a formula that I could perform on the fly, without having to break down any of the monster's stats or having to perform any calculations that took more than one step.

What I settled for is MDT = 5 + minion's level.

Let's examine the chart below:

Wizard Scorching Burst Encounter Power Minion MDT
Level Damage (Average) Damage (Average) Type (Level+5)
1 1d6+4 (7) Burning Hands 2d6+4 (11) Goblin Cutter 6
3 1d6+5 (8) Shock Sphere 2d6+5 (12) Hobgoblin Grunt 8
5 1d6+6 (9) Shock Sphere 2d6+6 (13) Orc Drudge 10
8 1d6+7 (10) Fire Burst 3d6+7 (17) Hobgoblin Warrior 13
11 1d6+8 (11) Fire Burst 3d6+8 (18) Ogre Thug 16
13 1d6+8 (11) Thunderlance 4d6+8 (22) Horde Ghoul 18
16 1d6+10 (13) Thunderlance 4d6+10 (24) Ogre Bludgeoner 21
18 1d6+10 (13) Combust 5d6+10 (27) Abyssal Ghoul Hungerer 23
21 2d6+12 (18) Combust 5d6+12 (29) Legion Devil Legionnaires 26
26 2d6+13 (19) Combust 5d6+13 (30) Lich Vestige 31
27 2d6+13 (19) Black Fire 6d6+13 (34)



Analyzing the chart I see that I got what I wanted. Generally speaking, I wanted a slightly more than even chance that a wizard could kill a minion with one spell. Looking at the chart, I see at the lower levels a wizard has a good chance of accomplishing this goal with at-will powers such as Scorching Burst. As the wizard and his minion opponents rise in level however, the wizard has to rely more on his encounter powers to clear out minions. I liked this result, I wanted minion-clearing to be fairly but not overly challenging, and as the wizard rises in level and gets access to more powers I don't think having to use an encounter power to clear the room of minions is an unfair tax. Better yet, this formula is very easy to calculate and really doesn't require any prep work to institute the change.

Thus this seem like a good formula to you guys?

 

[Emryys]

Looking at having a few "two-hit" minions, myself, just to shake the cage a little. They probably should have done them in regards to number of hits instead of using 1 hit point.

This gets my vote... simple to track as well...
Perfect, bloodied or dead

Would this greatly affect Controllers?
Perhaps if it's magical damage, they die in one hit...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, frankly I've already been using this system except I don't use any specific formula to set the MDT. When I set up the encounter I just note it in my encounter writeup "6 Orc Drudges Toughness=9". If I seem to be suffering from a case of trivial dispatch of minions, then I start upping them in future encounters. Easy way to tweak encounter balance on the fly. Anyway, nobody has to stick to the formula just because, so its overall an excellent notion. Should have been in the core rules.

 

[dragon23ca]

Somewhere on Enworld I had seen a houserule that boiled down to "If a minion is attacked and not killed, it is bloodied."

I've been thinking about abosrbing that one.

I put a post like that, but can't find were I put it. So here is was I am doing now that came from my post.

Tough Minion - The tough minion is a minion who has learned through combat experience or simple natural ability how to make it through a fight somewhat better than the rest of his kind, but still cannot be ranked among the best.

Tough Minion - Elite Minion
Humanoid or Undead XP Elite (twice normal minion)
Defenses +1 AC, +1 to any two other defense
Attacks +1
Hit Points 2 (Missed attacks never damage a tough minion, unless its bloodied.)
Tough Resolve [Con bonus] (immediate reaction, when hit by any attack; no action)
When a Tough minion is hit by an attack if the damage is less then its Tough Resovle mark the minion as bloodied with 1 hp left. Any damage taken after kills the minion. (note: con bonus = con mod + ½ level)
Desperate Strike (free action; encounter; recharge when bloodied)
When a tough minion hits with a standard attack, increase its damage by +3 normally listed.
This increases to +5 damage at 11st, and +9 damage at 21st.

This works great if you make 1-2 out of 4-5 of the Minions tough and don't tell the PC's till they hit one and don't kill it. But any way you do it, its pretty balanced, I think.

 

[PeelSeel2]

I keep minions as-is. If an ally with the leader tag is near it, the minions automatically get to save versus death on each hit or damage. They take the leader out, that goes away.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I put a post like that, but can't find were I put it. So here is was I am doing now that came from my post.

Tough Minion - The tough minion is a minion who has learned through combat experience or simple natural ability how to make it through a fight somewhat better than the rest of his kind, but still cannot be ranked among the best.

Tough Minion - Elite Minion
Humanoid or Undead XP Elite (twice normal minion)
Defenses +1 AC, +1 to any two other defense
Attacks +1
Hit Points 2 (Missed attacks never damage a tough minion, unless its bloodied.)
Tough Resolve [Con bonus] (immediate reaction, when hit by any attack; no action)
When a Tough minion is hit by an attack if the damage is less then its Tough Resovle mark the minion as bloodied with 1 hp left. Any damage taken after kills the minion. (note: con bonus = con mod + ½ level)
Desperate Strike (free action; encounter; recharge when bloodied)
When a tough minion hits with a standard attack, increase its damage by +3 normally listed.
This increases to +5 damage at 11st, and +9 damage at 21st.

This works great if you make 1-2 out of 4-5 of the Minions tough and don't tell the PC's till they hit one and don't kill it. But any way you do it, its pretty balanced, I think.

IMHO WAY too much book keeping. The advantage of the basic MDT style tough minion is it is just ONE number. Very simple, can be adjusted on the fly and doesn't change anything else. The only book keeping is you can bloody the minion, which is very minor. If I want TOUGHER monsters, then I'll just promote a minion to being a regular skirmisher or use the corresponding existing skirmisher monster. As it is I'm really liking the tough minions.

I set up a 'hobgoblin camp' the other day, bunches of hobgoblin grunts in tents, like 20 of them. As the party rushes into the camp pulling down tents and blasting away the minions pour out of the tents (any that are left standing). Making them tough minions means SOME do get to line up and make a token defense before going down. If they were regular minions then it would be not worth bothering, they'd all be toast. And when the party had it a bit too easy, then the next batch got a +2 MDT and spiced things up a bit. It was a pretty good encounter.

 

[Neil Bishop]

Going with the saving throw idea, if you wanted to complicate it a little bit more, but not too much, perhaps the "save or die" only applies if the damage is less than their level/twice their level. If it is more than this easily determined threshold they're just dead without a saving throw.

 

[dragon23ca]

IMHO WAY too much book keeping. The advantage of the basic MDT style tough minion is it is just ONE number. Very simple, can be adjusted on the fly and doesn't change anything else. The only book keeping is you can bloody the minion, which is very minor. If I want TOUGHER monsters, then I'll just promote a minion to being a regular skirmisher or use the corresponding existing skirmisher monster. As it is I'm really liking the tough minions.

I set up a 'hobgoblin camp' the other day, bunches of hobgoblin grunts in tents, like 20 of them. As the party rushes into the camp pulling down tents and blasting away the minions pour out of the tents (any that are left standing). Making them tough minions means SOME do get to line up and make a token defense before going down. If they were regular minions then it would be not worth bothering, they'd all be toast. And when the party had it a bit too easy, then the next batch got a +2 MDT and spiced things up a bit. It was a pretty good encounter.

Not sure what you mean by 'WAY too much book keeping'. I wrote it as a template for any minion, As for book keeping its just Bloodied or not and one power which bloodied keeps track of its recharge, you just make the minions first attack its encounter and its first attack when bloodied the encounter. And its not over balanced if you by mistake use the encounter power 1 or 2 times more, or not at all. As for tracking which one is the Tough Minion, which ever one you feel like when a PC hits a minion if you are mixing Tough and non-tough, its worked great for me.

 

[AumShantih]

• Minions have a Damage Threshold, equal to their level + adjusted Constitution ability score modifier.
  • If damage is dealt to the minion equal or above its damage threshold, it dies.
  • If damage is dealt to the minion that is less than its damage threshold, the minion is bloodied.
  • Any damage dealt to a bloodied minion causes it to die.
  • Bloodied minions may spend a healing surge (if someone gives that ability) to remove that condition.
• Misses now effect minions normally.

I gave these rules a try, and they worked quite well at upper heroic tiers of play. (Level 6-13 minions). It worked well for allied minions as well - and depicting the chaos of a fight with more than one faction. The PCs would spend abilities to heal the bloodied minions on their side, so they could fight off the other enemies that threatened them. I suspect it may not work as well for Level 1-5 minions, as they'd probably all be one-hit kills considering level 1-5 PC damage expressions.