Minion House Rules

I had thought something like 3+ 1/2 level. If you have 5+ 1/2 level+ con modifer. Down the road minions are going to be ahrd to kill. 14th level ogere minion would have 5 +7 (1/2 leve)+3 for con mod= 15. All ofa sudden non striker classes are really going to struggle to kill a minion. Figure a figher with a 20 str, +2 long sword, would do 1-8 +7 damage, he would need a max damage to kill a minion.

What about, 1/2 level + Con? Looking at the minions in the MM, this number seems "about right." Very low-level minions might only have a threshold of 1 (such as human, halfling, goblin, kobold, kruthik, rat, zombie) but I think that's OK since PCs at those levels tend not to have very many auto-hit powers. Using 1/2 level + Con has the super-helpful benefit of being printed right on each monster's stat block, too, so there is no calculation required.

-- 77IM
 

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Con already includes half-level... and I still think you're better off just making minions have a set value by level, rather than requiring looking it up. Ie, don't include Con at all.

If you need to make super tough brute minions, just give them a specific power to make them tougher (like +5 threshold)
 

Here's my suggestion for how to modify minions. I don't think any part of this is particularly unique, though I haven't seen this exact proposal out there. It's quite simple, since it only addresses "auto-damage", and also keeps all of the rolling done by the players.

When PC’s deal “auto-damage” (damage that does not require an attack roll) against a minion, the player has to make a d20 roll, and get a result of 10 or higher, to reduce the minion to 0 HP.

There is one exception to this rule: 1) the rule does not apply to any damage PC’s deal using a 1st level at-wills (e.g. cleave, cloud of daggers, greenflame blade);

Potential second exception: 2) once per round, a player may choose one minion that takes auto-damage from that PC and declare that that his or her d20 roll automatically succeeds, before making the roll.
 
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stinking cloud (Wizard Daily Attack 5)

Exactly, but now that I've advocated for it as a game mechanic, let me explain. The Tough Minion rule isn't intended to be something you apply liberally to all minions all the time.

In fact I'd argue that the majority of minions just don't need it. Especially the low level ones in 90% of cases. PCs will already miss and most AoE's at low level don't do unavoidable damage. All of those minions work fine in normal combat. But as soon as you start hitting 5-6th level minions are just nothing but an excuse to make the wizard burn an AoE that kills them all with 100% efficiency. And if they are higher level minions that can in some cases be something you want to avoid. Maybe you want the bad guy's minions to hold off the party for a round so he can escape or do some dastardly deed. It is just a thematic thing. There is a sort of missing middle there where the monster is still profitably aiding his allies and yet you can avoid actually recording its hit points.

That's all. It is a trick a DM can keep up his sleeve for those rare moments when it simplifies his life. It won't happen too often. Its just a thing to keep in the back of your mind as a tool, just like minions in general are a tool.
 

Why is it that most people don't like how minions work to begin with? I don't mean to antagonize, it just seems that the intention in "fixing" minions is often unclear. They're very simple to use as-is, and I'd like to understand more about why these kinds of edits make minions better than they are.

You are mistaken. People understand minions more than you seem to think.


Easy for the DM, lousy rules-wise for the game.

1) There are Encounter powers that effectively auto-kill minions (e.g. Winter's Wrath). Yawn. Next encounter. Why exactly is the DM handing out XP for this?

2) They are not a real challenge for players. Paper tigers. Comic relief at best (but redundant old comic relief after a while) unless the DM throws an entire platoon of them at PCs. I have seen my fellow players cheer when certain bad guys are killed. That never happens with minions. There is no sense of accomplishment or real fun. Killing a minion is just an exercise in rolling dice. Minion encounters, unless they have a lot of other interesting foes in them, tend to be filler between the real interesting and memorable encounters. In fact, the opposite should be true. Being attacked by 20 foes should be more memorable than most other encounters, but not when 16 of the foes are paper tigers. Then, it's just dice rolling. zzzzzzzzzzz

3) They encourage meta-gaming by players. Fighter: "Look 8 foes", Wizard: "No worries, they are minions, a simple Scorching Burst..."

4) One cannot Intimidate a minion and get it to surrender and spill the beans. Not because it does not make sense to intimidate a minion (it makes a lot of sense), but because the Intimidate game mechanics are mutually exclusive from the Minion game mechanics (or at least by implication, i.e. the implication is that bloodied targets will surrender, non-bloodied ones will not and minions cannot be bloodied).

5) There are minion rule exceptions to the normal rules which are merely meta-rules rules. The Wizard who fails the attack roll for a Fireball does nothing to a minion, but he can seriously damage or kill other creatures with it. The minion is immune. Why? Because of special stupid minion rule which is mutually exclusive from the half damage rules. This btw, is a serious game design flaw.

6) At higher levels when PCs have even more anti-minion tactics at their disposal, minions become even more of a joke.

7) Minions often do less average damage than non-minions with the same ability scores and weapons. Why? Merely to speed up the game a few seconds per attack.

8) Minions cannot critical. Boring. In our game, the DM rolls attack rolls in front of the players. Rolling a 20 and doing 4 points of damage is anti-climactic.

9) They encourage cliche-ish monster tactics by DMs. First, send in the waves of minions. Second, send in the real troops. Oh, your players have an anti-minion spell, then let's encourage the DM to send the minions in multiple waves instead of his original plan for them (this happened in our game when the DM realized that my Wizard was going to fry the entire encounter with one spell). In reality, the tactically smart thing for a large group of creatures to do is swamp the PCs with numbers. But, this doesn't work with certain 4E spells, so the DM is encouraged to do the opposite of what should be the tactically best move by the monsters. All because of game mechanics.


There is nothing wrong with a monster concept of a minion. It's a really good idea. Monsters that cannot quite last as long in a fight. The ability to have larger combats that are not auto-TPK. And, it's fun for the players of the PCs that are less brawny to be able to kill something in a fight more often than normal. The concept is totally fine.

It's merely the game mechanics which are designed for ease of DM bookkeeping as opposed to game rules consistency and fun that are so inferior.
 

A good chunk of these do indeed seem fixed by giving minions a bloodied state, with a threshold that makes them closer to two hits and they are down.

The thing I thought of almost immediately Ally minions that my player's might heal now "because they can", it is a roleplaying thing not a practical one so dont pick on them for it. Too many things are triggered by bloodied state in the game so minions not having one seems way out of sink.

others... seem well taste specific.

Waves of minions... umm not a problem it works for me

Criticals resulting in more hitpoints are boring for pcs why would I want them on minions.... because till you are below zero you really shouldnt hear about gaping
wounds and jets of blood .. save that for negative hitpoints and failed saves or attacks against minions... speaking of which.



This is another thing minions give me...even as written (yup I think they are definitely a good idea for the reasons you mention plus some)
A real sword blow is deadly and one shot can definitely kill ... heros and significant enemies it shouldnt at least not right away... but you need the reminders that it can happen.. walls of fire incinerate ... lightning bolts stop hearts cold and i dont have to go through a series of describing near misses.. before the powers visually kick in... PC's knowing what is at stake makes the near misses more interesting.
 

I think the complaining about minions is a BIT overstated though. The issue with AoE's just burning them down at even mid-heroic is really the MAIN issue. The lack of a bloodied state, so what? They have no use for it themselves and (again with low level minions) I can think of no situation where its lack is really going to matter. A level 3 minion is so easy to wipe out anyhow that it seems kind of silly to complain about not getting some extra plus you only get against bloodied opponents. Its a minion, it will probably die anyway.

It does get stupid at higher levels though, and thats why I like the tough minions rule, for that time when it does matter to the DM and he doesn't want to resort to using regular monsters and having to track everything.
 

I actually think the problem isn't with minions as much as it's with abilities that deal automatic damage.

Rod of Reaving, Winter's Wrath, Stinking Cloud, etc.

I consider this to be the biggest problem - by the time the party are mid heroic level there a number of ways of getting automatic damage going in every encounter, which means that minions are just free xp.

I had a good encounter on Sunday when I challenged the 6th level party with a bunch of 12th level troglodyte minions - it worked well, as the party said "that's a lot, they must be minions", then tried to hit them and found it was a little more difficult than they expected... and it turned into a tough fight.

Until the auto-damage power came into play, of course, when it could have got really bad if I hadn't got a Grell handy.

Back to the issue though. On the one hand half damage from a missed attack doesn't kill a minion. On the other hand the smallest amount of damage from a zone which they are in at the start of their turn kills them.

I'm toying with the idea of minions not being affected by ongoing damage, automatic damage or half damage on a miss. They ONLY get killed by something which has hit their defences. Anything else 'hurts' them, but doesn't take them down.

Cheers
 

Well, I've been using this house rule just fine:

Remove the existing minion rule, change to 'Minion Weakness
If a minion is hit for any damage, it dies. If a minion takes damage without being hit, it is not killed, but it becomes bloodied and dies the next time it takes any damage in any way.'

So, automatic damage (auras, ongoing, damage shields, etc) would bloody then kill minions, damage on miss abilities (like dailies, hammer rhythm, reaping strike, etc) would bloody then kill, etc.

Why: Because it feels unfair and unrealistic to players for their half damage or damage on miss abilities to never work on minions, while it feels cheap or too easy for automatic damage effects to kill them. Plus it allows minions to live in the "bloodied" design space with everyone else.
 

Well, I've been using this house rule just fine:

Remove the existing minion rule, change to 'Minion Weakness
If a minion is hit for any damage, it dies. If a minion takes damage without being hit, it is not killed, but it becomes bloodied and dies the next time it takes any damage in any way.'

So, automatic damage (auras, ongoing, damage shields, etc) would bloody then kill minions, damage on miss abilities (like dailies, hammer rhythm, reaping strike, etc) would bloody then kill, etc.

Why: Because it feels unfair and unrealistic to players for their half damage or damage on miss abilities to never work on minions, while it feels cheap or too easy for automatic damage effects to kill them. Plus it allows minions to live in the "bloodied" design space with everyone else.

I like the simplicity and wording of it... but the option of opting for a saving throw is intriguing too (though at the cost of bloodied).
 
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