Minion version of insubstantial/vulnerable monster?

[Infiniti2000]

Mathematically speaking, insubstantial minions with a save to live will not survive longer than standard creatures unless that standard creatures have very few hit points. To calculate this, just determine the average damage per attack of a PC. If the standard (insubstantial) monster has more hit points than that (actually more + 2.5%), then it will survive longer than a minion as proposed here.

So, regardless of the one empircal data point, I think a save would work well.

Regarding vulnerability, I like the idea of making the minion die on a miss (half damage).

Another option would be an encounter power save to survive (rather than save each time), with -2 or -5 when vulnerable. This would assuredly address the empircal data point.

 

[Mesh Hong]

Mathematically speaking, insubstantial minions with a save to live will not survive longer than standard creatures unless that standard creatures have very few hit points. To calculate this, just determine the average damage per attack of a PC. If the standard (insubstantial) monster has more hit points than that (actually more + 2.5%), then it will survive longer than a minion as proposed here.

So, regardless of the one empircal data point, I think a save would work well.

I don't doubt your maths, I was passing on my actual play experience. Though I do freely admit that it was only 1 encounter, so might not be a balanced or statistically average result.

However I did get a feel for how it worked and the reactions of my players, which was that it didn't quite work and was a little too random.

Another option would be an encounter power save to survive (rather than save each time), with -2 or -5 when vulnerable. This would assuredly address the empircal data point.

Yes that would work much better, but minions with encounter powers is counter productive (design wise) to the role of a minion. They should require no book keeping. You could get round this by using different coloured counters to represent which ones have used the encounter power though, so that might work.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I tried this approach once. I had minions that survived longer than standard creatures because they kept making saves. I havn't repeated the ability because I didn't think it worked that well.

The original Fell Taint approach from WotC is to have the save be an encounter power. They can't use it for every attack that hits them, just the first. (Well, they could try for the second, but they are dead then already. )

 

[CapnZapp]

Saving against being killed is what I'd go with.

 

[sfedi]

I don't think that giving a save to insubstantial minions is balanced.

You are giving him double life expectancy.

Monsters that have Insubstantial, have their hit point cut in half, to compensate.

So it is unbalanced to do that on minions.

Maybe you can do a "3 insubstantial minions equal 1 standard insubstantial monster".

 

[UngeheuerLich]

IMHO insubstantial is really badly implemented:

reason: if you give half hp to monsters and reduce every damage by half, the net effect is zero.

I know there are feats which allow to pierce insubstantial, but you could as well write: they deal double damage to insubstantial monsters etc.

If resist and vulnerabilities however would bypass insubstantial, than this trait had an effect, but even then just doubling vulnerability had the same effect.

edit: ok, when you are adding effects, that make you insubstantial and tempory hp in the mix, it starts making a bit of sense... but most monsters lack this mechanic.

 

[sfedi]

Believe it or not, even though the total effect is the same (except for hit point lost due to rounding), the psychologycal effect on players is NOT the same.