Minions: What Bugs You?

[Herremann the Wise]

Because one of the orcs is a better combatant that the other?

I just don't like this being represented by simplifying this lack of skill by reducing a creatures hp to 1.

Why should one AD&D orc have 1HP and another 8HP?

I'm not a fan of hps in this way as you may or may not know from other threads. I prefer hps to represent something a little less abstract. Actually I prefer a dual hit point / combat point system but heh... that's for another thread.

'Earned the right'? D&D is, at its core, a power fantasy. I seem to recall butchering a lot of (usually sleeping) orcs and rats and such with my low-level PC's back in the day. The butchery-at-low-levels we have always had with us (haven't we?).

Sort of. The games I've played in have been more where if the DM says "roll initiative" and :

"Thirty orcs run at the group": Oh crap! Fall back guys, lock the door and damn well hope it holds long enough for us to get the hell out of here!

Rather than:

"Thirty orcs run at the group": Woohoo! Minion fiends, taste my sword you heap of ****! Rarghhhhhhh!!!

How do you feel about dungeons?

(I'm not knocking you, I suppose one man's contrivance is another man's cherished tradition.)

I think perhaps more than anything, this hits the nail on the head [XP coming your way]. My group has lackeys and from a meta perspective hp filler, but never swathes of minions to be mown as so much wheat. Dungeons on the other hand like at the start of Raiders of the Lost Ark! Well that just gloriously pushes my buttons.

We all look for different things out of an RPG game. I have my "world" in my head and I've been trying to get D&D in all its editions to fit that by basically basing it into the shape I want (unfortunately for me 4E requires even more bashing than 3E did - which was quite a bit). Minion rules are obviously one of the first things to go for me.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Dice4Hire]

For me minions are an excellnt addition tothe rules, but too fragile, especially at higher levels, where abilities to target larger areas are more common, and there are a lot mroe 1-10 point auras or special tricks out there, like the warlock curse trick that can kill multiple minions in a single round without a singe dice roll.

For my games, you need an attack roll to dmaage minions, though they still only have one hit point. It can be a blast or a burst,m but auto damage does not hurt minions, jsut weaken stronger opponents.

Second, xp is halved in paragon and halved again in epic. 1/4 is n\too much ion paragon or epec, so effectivelyt 1/6 in paragon and 1/8 in epic, though I ahve not actually done epic yet.

 

[Doug McCrae]

"Thirty orcs run at the group": Oh crap! Fall back guys, lock the door and damn well hope it holds long enough for us to get the hell out of here!

No web or fireball? Thirty orcs are a speed-bump to most D&D parties.

 

[Ariosto]

When is a monster a minion?

Reading the DMG, it appears that the answer is whenever one replaces a standard monster (fitting into a target XP total) with "several" -- alternatively "four" -- minions of that level. So, theoretically, a level 9 encounter for five PCs (2,000 XP) could be made up of two level 14 standard monsters ... or several level 14 minions (half as many of level 18 being too hard for a "level 10" or lower party, and eight times as many of level 2 being too easy for a party of "level 7" or higher).

It does not appear that a monster is simultaneously a standard monster to one character (taking normal hit point damage and so on) and a minion to another.

The way some people write about them, though, is confusing in light of that.

Whence, for instance, come such ideas as that certain monsters are always minions when met by characters of a certain (which??) level -- or that certain (which??) others are never minions?

How does one determine the stats for a minion? For instance, I see that they are supposed to do a fixed amount of damage ... but standard monsters do rolled amounts.

 

[Hussar]

Whence, for instance, come such ideas as that certain monsters are always minions when met by characters of a certain (which??) level -- or that certain (which??) others are never minions?

Well, I'll take a stab at the last one first. Some monsters are almost never given the minion "template" (to borrow a 3e ism) because you generally don't meet that many of them, or, the base monster is so powerful that you will never be powerful enough to "minionize" them. The Balor is a good example of both. You probably shouldn't ever meet 4 balors (yikes!) and, unless you're doing some really creative things with the level system, you are not going to be powerful enough to lord it over them.

The first part of your question, when are minions minions is best answered by, "Whenever the DM feels like it." If the DM feels that the encounter would be made more interesting by having a small horde of baddies coming at you, then break out the minions. Since the minions can hit you, and can hurt you, they are a credible enough threat in numbers that they have to be dealt with. It simply adds another tactical element to the encounter.

It's really no different from the Mob rules in PHB 2 (3e) where you could could take large numbers of creatures that individually would not be a threat to the PC's and turn them into a very credible threat. It's no less gamist really. Why are 14 humanoids not a mob, but, 15 are? (I think that's the numbers, I could be misremembering, just work with me on this). Because the mechanics need some number and that's the number they picked.

Why is that critter a minion in this particular encounter? Because it makes sense from a thematic and feel perspective.

 

[Raven Crowking]

It's just terminology, RC. I can spend a lot of time prepping the stats for a 'combat encounter' only to end up running it as long, dice-less conversation, instead of a fight. Happened fairly often when I ran 3e.

Terminology shapes expectations, IME.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

No web or fireball? Thirty orcs are a speed-bump to most D&D parties.

In your experience, do you mean? Or do you have some mystical connection that tells you what the play experience of most D&D parties is?

I've played many, many games in which parties fled from 30 orcs. I've played many, many games in which parties were not simply having a power fantasy. I've done so in several US states and 2 countries (US and Canada), with literally hundreds of players.

I've never run or played in an encounter in which 30 orcs were a speed-bump. Of course, per RAW in older editions, fireball was a monumentally bad idea in a dungeon....very likely to toast the party. Web is likewise only moderately useful in a situation like this -- not even half the orcs are likely to be caught in the web -- being more useful as a means to ensure they don't get through the door than anything else.

In one RCFG playtest, I ran G1 using RCFG rules (which make PCs tougher than 1e PCs), and the masses of bugbears, troglodytes, and orcs certainly came across as more than speed bumps.

3e is a bit different, because of the steep power curve. I've run battles between lvl 3-6 3e parties and 30+ goblins, but they were not speed bumps either. I imagine that high-level 3e characters might find 30 orcs to be a speed bump.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

It's really no different from the Mob rules in PHB 2 (3e) where you could could take large numbers of creatures that individually would not be a threat to the PC's and turn them into a very credible threat. It's no less gamist really. Why are 14 humanoids not a mob, but, 15 are? (I think that's the numbers, I could be misremembering, just work with me on this). Because the mechanics need some number and that's the number they picked.

I'm no fan of mob rules, either (even though I like swarms, so take that bias for what it is worth!). Mob rules come about because of two factors: (1) individual insignificance of members, and (2) time required to resolve combat.

(1) is a function of a steep power curve, ala 3e. 4e, IMHO, took a step in the right direction by offering a less steep curve. So, while I can easily see ants, wasps, tiny arachnids, or even mice or rats as being individually insignificant, I have a much harder time applying that to goblins, orcs, etc. Call it a handicap, if you will. In this respect, at least, I give preference to minion rules over mob rules.

(2) is a function of numbers bloat, combined with combat/character rules that are (literally, as WotC has said as much) designed to extend combat (so you can show off your cool stuff) and reinforce the use of minis (as Scott Rouse was good enough to admit 3e does, and 4e moreso).

If you remove these two factors, it is easy enough to run a combat with 30 opponents. Neither minion nor mob rules are needed, and (IMHO and IME) once these basic problems are removed from a combat system, they add nothing of value.

YMMV, of course.


RC

 

[Somebloke]

No web or fireball? Thirty orcs are a speed-bump to most MID-LEVEL OR HIGHER D&D parties WITHOUT A GREAT DEAL OF DM CRUELTY AND/OR SNEAKINESS.

Fixed for accuracy.

I like the minions system- while it is not internally consistent, it is a simple and elegant means for resolving a) the complexity in mass numbers of enemies in regards to status, condition tracks etc. and b) level increase- those soldiers you fought in fours and fives at level 5 will be much better represented by minions at level 15 than the same block of stats from 5.

 

[Hussar]

Fixed for accuracy.

I like the minions system- while it is not internally consistent, it is a simple and elegant means for resolving a) the complexity in mass numbers of enemies in regards to status, condition tracks etc. and b) level increase- those soldiers you fought in fours and fives at level 5 will be much better represented by minions at level 15 than the same block of stats from 5.

I'm not sure how accurate it is to call 3rd level (when you get web) a mid to high level campaign.

Sure, 30 orcs vs a 1st level party is going to smoosh the party. Two levels later, they're a speed bump, and probably so even without area of effect spells. The fighter's AC is likely in the negatives as is the cleric's. The orcs are hitting on a 20 while the fighter types and cleric blat orcs every round.