Minions with 1hp - Can anyone justify this?

[Ninja-to]

Not exactly. It's true they wouldn't wander the countryside fearing anything that could take their 1 HP away, because only players or heroes can do that.

But its not true that a DM could not have them wandering alone. Let's look at Legion Devils again. A DM could have a Pit Fiend sitting outside a town and sending his dozen Legion Devil Hellguards into a town *alone* to raze it to the ground. Unless that town had high level adventurers, there is nothing the townsfolk could do to stop them. Not one Legion Devil would likely die in the process.

RAW, this isn't true. Anything that rolls a natural 20 will kill one. If you decide not to roll at all as DM and simply say 'none die' then you're free to do that. Or you could say again 'minions don't take damage from non-Pc's'.

I do agree with you though that having minions *not* exist outside of PC combat or PC's being present is troubling. I don't like it either but I don't see a way of having minions exist with their 1HP. A pack of wolves or 20 of pretty much any creature could spell its doom if they all got one attack in. That is, you'd have to rule that taking 1HP damage from 'lesser' creatures wouldn't kill a minion.

 

[Switchback]

RAW, this isn't true. Anything that rolls a natural 20 will kill one.

If you have monsters (any type not just minions) do something like attack a town, or any action involving conflict without the players, do your really stop the game for several hours to roll out the combat one round at a time? No, you look at the relative strength of the creatures and make a decision about what would happen in that battle in general and how it would resolve.

For you to want to roll out that non-player minion conflict is no more necessary than you to roll out the results of 12 Ogre Savages hitting the town as well. Either way your going to have to DM fiat the results there or else waste a heck of a lot of pointless time for little gain.
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As dice rolling with regards to minions is only ever going to happen where players are concerned, the 1HP is never going to be an issue. It's not even true to say they really have 1HP, so much that it takes one hit from roughly equal level players to kill them. It's not the same thing.

 

[DracoSuave]

Another good example of minion vs regular monsters is The Matrix.

In the first movie, Agent Smith was a Solo. Neo had to pull together all the stops to defeat him.

In the second movie, the Agent Smiths were minions. Individually, Neo could handle them with ease, but they had numbers and stood a chance that way. And Neo did defeat an AWFUL lot of Agent Smiths.

In the third movie, in the final fight, Agent Smith was back to his old solo self, after having gathered all the power of being the one virus left in the Matrix.

 

[Goumindong]

You are really missing my point there by virtually saying everything off camera is DM fiat. That goes without saying. But it doesn't add much to the discussion really.

No it really does, because its pretty much RAW and RAI. People here who are complaining that minions have 1 HP are largely complaining that in fights that do not involve players these 1 HP monsters would be killed by things that should not kill them. But RAW and RAI this is not true, since its NPC against NPC they pretty much do what you want. The DMG explicitly tells you that you should probably not roll these interactions.

Orcs aren't just dust in the wind

No one is saying the monsters disappear when the PC's aren't there, they are saying that the concept of "minion" does. Its only a "minion" when the PCs are there fighting it. And when the PC's aren't there fighting it, its whatever it needs to be to make the plot expedient.

When the Legion Devil Hellguards go into a town and raze it to the ground they are freaking Devils. When the PC's come they just happen to be Devils that the PC's are so much stronger than that BoB the Fighter the third can take them out with a single elbow drop and/or mailed fist. But against the townsfolk they are still unstoppable monsters of unspeakable doom.

I.E. against the townsfolk the Legion Devil Hellguards are level 5 soldiers and the townsfolk are level 1 minions. But against the heroes the Legion Devil Hellguards are level 11 minions and the PCs are level 11 heroes.

 

[Switchback]

^

Ok. I see what you are saying now.

I have already tried to say that in many different ways, but it seem hard for some to grasp that the 1 HP only applies in the specific situations where the players are encountering these creatures as minions.

It's too bad though that people will not be able to use minions in their campaigns because they cannot or won't allow themselves to square the idea. Or worse, are going to have different monsters, with different looks, roles, or lore, possibly morphing into various minion creatures once battle begins because they don't get how to do it any other way.

 

[Ninja-to]

But RAW and RAI this is not true, since its NPC against NPC they pretty much do what you want. The DMG explicitly tells you that you should probably not roll these interactions.

Perhaps this is one of the main problems. Where exactly does it state this in the rules?

No one is saying the monsters disappear when the PC's aren't there, they are saying that the concept of "minion" does. Its only a "minion" when the PCs are there fighting it. And when the PC's aren't there fighting it, its whatever it needs to be to make the plot expedient.

Agreed.

When the Legion Devil Hellguards go into a town and raze it to the ground they are freaking Devils. When the PC's come they just happen to be Devils that the PC's are so much stronger than that BoB the Fighter the third can take them out with a single elbow drop and/or mailed fist. But against the townsfolk they are still unstoppable monsters of unspeakable doom.


I.E. against the townsfolk the Legion Devil Hellguards are level 5 soldiers and the townsfolk are level 1 minions. But against the heroes the Legion Devil Hellguards are level 11 minions and the PCs are level 11 heroes.

This is the part that's harder to grasp. I'm not saying I disagree with it, I'm just saying that I think this is where all the confusion comes in. The 'process' I suppose of explaining to a group of guys at your gaming table at how this happens in play is what some people may find difficult. You can be sure that some of the players are going to pipe in and point out 'wait a minute, if any of these hundreds of townsfolk roll a 20 with a bow, they'd kill a minion'.

We know as DM's that this shouldn't be allowed. Explaining to players why is where the problem lies, because as far as I know this isn't explained in the RAW.

 

[Switchback]

We know as DM's that this shouldn't be allowed. Explaining to players why is where the problem lies, because as far as I know this isn't explained in the RAW.

This is why I feel players need to be let in on the basic premise of Minions and even their underlying mechanics. If they are new to the game or just not DM'ing and haven't paid attention, I see where it could be confusing.

They need to be told what they are and what they represent and why WoTC thought them up and the purpose they serve to the game.

I also think this is why they suggest making them be identifiable by players. Because after your 3rd Vampire Lord explodes in death on the first hit, and other ones have taken 15 rounds to kill, the horrible inconsistency might begin to ruin the underlying logic of your world, But the players should be able to much more easily understand that something like a Vampire Spawn could wreak havoc against commoners, but that beyond a certain point, would stop being a legitimate threat to paragon level heroes as individual monsters.

 

[Destil]

Monster tailoring is even more extensive in 4th edition. You think you surprise your party with a Barbarian/Blackguard orc? That surprise is nothing compared to some freak kobold with strange abilities that can't be attributed to just kobolds.

4th edition threw any idea of assumption about a given creature out the window. Creatures do all kinds of strange things. There is no assumption about any creature now. If you're level 20 and a group of kobolds stand in your way, do not assume an easy fight. You are in serious trouble. Those kobolds are going to hand you your behind if you don't fight like their real enemies.

No different than 3E templates and monsters with class levels. Two kobolds wiped a 5th level party of mine once with 6 players and an equal-leveled NPC...

Two kobold sorcerer 8s, that is.

Hell, let me introduce you to Klixxit

 

[Lurker37]

That means what exactly in relation to the fact that Minions exist in the game world outside of combat? Which is the point I am making.

I don't think we are in disagreement about the way Minions should generally be used in encounters. However, the way you suggested playing sort of fast and loose with minions or doing bait and switches with other related monster types, would be suspect at the least, and downright dishonest or unworkable in some cases.

I.e. It might indeed be possible to catch a Legion Devil on a errand or messenger mission and if it were engaged, there is simply no way to morph it into anything other than it is, because all Legion Devils are minions. There is no such thing as a standard version and they look entirely different physically than other demons.

Likewise, if players chased a minion out of one battle and into a building where it hid, such that it triggered a entirely new encounter, that creature should remain a minion when it is found and the new battle is begun, regardless if the players knew it was one beforehand. The DM knew and should retain consistency and regard for what these separate monsters roles are in the world.

You've missed the point. Nobody's morphing anything. The Legion Devil in your example does not suddenly bulk up or gain a more robust cardivascular system.

The Legion Devil doesn't have one hit point because he's a Legion Devil. He has one hit point because he was put into the encounter as a minion. If you are forced to let the party encounter a single Legion Devil outside of a balanced level-appropriate encounter you either:

a) Acknowledge that anything short of a solo monster caught alone by a five-PC party is toast, and let them kill him. ( in the example of the fleeing minion - how the heck does one non-solo creature count as 'an encounter'? If the creature flees to the next encounter however... )

b) Quickly assign an arbitrary amount of hit points and let them rough him up - they'll still probably kill him in one round. (And it still doesn't count as an encounter. This is important for things like milestones.)

c) If they don't want to kill him, let them roleplay it out (possible skill challenge).

(In fact, there's an option d) where the Legion Devil is much higher level than the party, but in these cases the only solution is to drag the DM out the back and beat them senseless with a wiffle bat.)

Option b is the only one that requires alteration to the stats in the MM, probably by giving every minion two sets of stats. I don't think the gain in this corner case is worth the confusion it would cause.

The much, MUCH simpler solution is to give minions an in-game rationale not to wander out alone. For instance, declare that minions have a pack mentality, and strongly dislike being alone. They hang out in groups whenever at all possible.

And have their superiors recognise that minions are too incompetent to trust with anything important like carrying a message - you use a lurker or something for that. Minions are the expendable troops, the runts of the litter, the hapless fools not worth wasting proper training and equipment on. Why on earth would you trust them with an errand or a message? If you've ever watched any television (or if you grew up in any society that had minions) you would know that a minion being sent to complete any task of importance is just going to end with their boss taking two asprin, putting an icepack on their head (or, if really evil, executing a few random conveniently-placed minions ) and sending someone competent out to do whatever the minion failed to achieve.

You're also forgetting that the only time PCs will ever encounter ANY creature in game is because the DM put it there (even if the module says there's a Blue Spotted Geeba in the room, the DM still has the option by RAW to change that, especially to adjust for party size and composition). Because of this, the DM can control where minions go, and where they can be found, and what they do if they're in a losing battle (which, by the way, is 'die fighting'). If the DM ignores the rules for how to use minions and as a result creates an odd situation, then where does the fault lie?

 

[Pinnacle]

I suppose if people simply dislike the "1 hp" in the stat block, the same effect could be achieved by giving them standard hit points, but giving them the following vulnerability:

Vulnerable: A minion hit by an attack by an opponent of its tier or higher is struck dead. A minion that takes any automatic damage from an effect with level in its tier or higher is struck dead, with the exception of any effect brought about by a miss.

The vast majority of the time it would work out the same, you would just have a standard hit point to reference in the odd occasions where cats attack or lethal bramble bushes need to be run through.

Also allows for enough attacks that do damage on a miss to take out a minion. Probably won't ever come up, but if the players have bad luck a minion could survive more of these attacks than he/she/it should be able to take.