Minions with 1hp - Can anyone justify this?

[Tenniel]

I'm having difficulty understanding how minions interact with the world.

I think how minions interact with the world is different with how they interact with PCs. Having 1 HP is an abstraction (as you noted) and, importantly, an abastrction that assumes the minion is in combat with PCs of a relevant level. This abstraction (and indeed game mechanics in general) are not required to adjudicate events outside the spotlight of the game.

When not part of an encounter minions can go about their lives without fear of dying from mosquito bites. They can have battles with their neighbours and hobble into the infirmary afterwards with a dagger in the thigh and arrow in the shoulder. Now if their neighbours were PCs then either the arrow or the dagger would have slain the creature (such is their fate when encountering heroes). In short, minions interact with the world in a way that you, the DM, dictate to achieve whatever end you desire, be that 'realism', conistency, common-sense, plot or whatever tickles your fancy.

Similarly they could get through the damaging terrain (ouch, ouch) to later be part of the encounter (with deep scratches and their single solitary HP).

HPs represent a lot of things: mass, toughness but also luck and battle experience. It is the fate of a minion to receive a mighty blow in combat from a worthy opponent, this does not mean they are made of tissue paper (refer to a Legion Devil's Fort save)... it means the PCs can easily dispatch these lesser beings with relative ease.

It is possible to set up anomolous situations (e.g. pet cats vs high level minion) with minions, but these can be simply avoided. DnD simulates heroic fiction, which centres on the heroes and their deeds... so omitting the housecat's attacks from the resolution of combat will solve the rules anomaly while maintaing the spirit of the game.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If there's going to be a problem with the abstract nature of D&D combat not taking such things into account, you're going to have a lot more problems than just the minion rules. I mean, standard combat of all types has opponents dying at zero hit points by default, unless the player specifically notes attacking to subdue or by DM fiat. As far as I know, Minions are no different than standard monsters when it comes to what happens when they hit zero hit points. Really, if you want to bring in more realistic and simulationist combat into D&D, I fear you've got a complete overhaul of the system to consider.

Oh, don't worry about me- I'm already putting 4Ed in my rearview mirror. I don't care for that neighborhood at all.*

(*At least as a replacement for 3.X- it may be a decent game in and of itself, but like HERO Fuzion so many years ago, I won't be buying any more than the Core 3 I already have.)

 

[Obryn]

Which isn't realistic at all- the world is full of people who survive all kinds of horrible injuries- the kid who survives being mauled by dogs or attacked by sharks, the guy who survives being shot.

Why do you think that 4e's minion rules represent anything other than the mechanics through which NPCs (deemed to be minions in any given combat) interact with PCs?

-O

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Why do you think that 4e's minion rules represent anything other than the mechanics through which NPCs (deemed to be minions in any given combat) interact with PCs?

I don't.

I just think the 4Ed Minions mechanic does a poor job of simulating this because, as I said, 1 successful hit from a PC and they're done...which not only doesn't comport with the RW, it is also at odds with heroic genre fiction (at least, the better exemplars).

Weak? A marginal threat? That I can understand.

Sopping wet toilet paper foes? I don't care for that.

 

[Jhulae]

it is also at odds with heroic genre fiction (at least, the better exemplars).

Except for the fiction (in books and movies) where the heroes cut down/eliminate swaths of foes before the 'climactic' battle with the major villain.

Minion rules work fine, as long as one doesn't think to hard about them.

 

[Minigiant]

Minions having 1 HP makes perfect sense to me.

Minions come in 3 types to me.

1) Mooks. You suck at defensive fighting.
You lack the fighting ability to defend yourself. You have to rely on your armor and powers to keep you from getting hit in the first place. But if someone swings past your armor, you lack the ability to dodge or parry it. Just because you're an orc or orge, doesn't mean you know how to parry a kensai's axe. Not everyone knows how to fight. You might be some wimp with superpowers. Level 15 powers on a level 1 body maybe. You can fly and shoot lasers but are really a loser in battle. Someone gave the street rat some epic gear. Someone took too many templates in 3.5E and walked into 4E.

2) Ninja. You rely on passive defenses.
You slaughter the weak only to die for the strong. Enter the high level mass produced warrior. You buffed up your passive defenses (AC, reflex, etc) and but never planned on someone ever beating them. But commoners have to roll a 20 to hit you so you should have killed them all by then, right? Too bad your mortal. A stab to the heart kills most people and you have a dagger in your chest. You are hard to hit but once you get hit, you go down. You're a legionnaire or soldier, 90% of the time for you it's more important to never allow a hit than it is to block those hits.

Minions either are grunts, noncombatants with superpowers, or experts with bad luck. Almost everyone dies with their brains are bashed and for one reason or other, when the good guys get a headshot, minion doesn't move.

 

[icarusfallz]

To reply to the idea of a housecat killing a minion:

Minions are only minions to PCs, this should be obvious. Farmers and housecats and raccoons are no threat to minions. A horde of Kobolds comes to town, and the farmers are like "Well, 90% of them are minions, so to heck with em" I think not.

Minions are SCARY to the non heroic.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

CustServ reply: You can handle it however you want.

Kind of goes along with what everyone else has been saying. I'm pretty sure that is the answer they'd give for anything that happens "in game" when there are no PCs around.

Implied response: If you think it'd be dumb for a lvl 20 minion to be able to be killed by a house cat, then they're not. That goes along perfectly with last page's quote from the DMG describing "the minion 1 hp rule" as a tool for the DM to use when they wish. Again implied: if stuff happens and there are no PCs around to be involved, then you should decide what happens whatever way you think is plausible.

What else could you possibly need as far as an official answer?

 

[FourthBear]

I just think the 4Ed Minions mechanic does a poor job of simulating this because, as I said, 1 successful hit from a PC and they're done...which not only doesn't comport with the RW, it is also at odds with heroic genre fiction (at least, the better exemplars).

Weak? A marginal threat? That I can understand.

Sopping wet toilet paper foes? I don't care for that.

I must say that I disagree with both of your points. I have a hard time thinking of a prominent example of heroic genre fantasy fiction in which the heroes *don't* find themselves fighting against foes that are slain in a single mentioned attack in the book, but a menace in numbers. Certainly, the classic touchstones of D&D all have this: Lord of the Rings, Elric, Conan, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser and others. I would assume that these are considered among the better exemplars, as the founders of the game felt they were the primary inspirational material.

I also think minions are definitely not "sopping toliet paper foes" that aren't even a marginal threat. In fact, I believe that they can be significantly more than a marginal threat. Note that their defenses and their attack bonuses are level appropriate. If the PCs are hitting minions 90% of the time, something is out of whack. They should still be having to roll above 7-10 to hit a minion at pretty much all tiers of play, unless they are choosing to expend resources that are usually conserved for potent foes to clear them out. In my own games, I've seen minions taken out quickly when the heroes work at it for a couple of rounds, but I've also seen minions drop PCs when the PCs decided to concentrate only on the big guns because they thought that the minions weren't a threat.

I think it's important to emphasize that minions are *not* there primarily to be punching bags only used for atmosphere. If that is desired, the DM should use foes significantly lower in level than the heroes. If minions aren't a significant threat for whatever reason in a campaign, the DM should stop using them and use foes that are actually threatening and worth awarding XPs for.

I should note that I do worry a bit that at higher tier play, area effects with automatic damage will become so common and easy that minions may become less of a threat overall. However, I think this is a separate issue from whether the minion rules are appropriate at all.

 

[Goumindong]

I don't.

I just think the 4Ed Minions mechanic does a poor job of simulating this because, as I said, 1 successful hit from a PC and they're done...which not only doesn't comport with the RW, it is also at odds with heroic genre fiction (at least, the better exemplars).

Weak? A marginal threat? That I can understand.

Sopping wet toilet paper foes? I don't care for that.

Then don't use minions. They are there when you want to have a fight between a bunch of enemies and the PC's but standard monsters would either be too powerful or too weak.

Minions come in 4s. So for a party of five, the minimum minion encounter is going to be about

4 normal enemies, +4 minions. For a total of 8 enemies.

On the high end of an even level encounter you will be looking at 1-2 normal enemies and 12-16 minions. On the high end of a +3-4 level encounter you might be looking at 30-40 minions(not sure)

You simply cannot use the same basic monsters and have a challenging fight with 20 enemies or more without utterly destroying the party.

These fights exist in heroic fantasy books and movies all the time, as well as extending across genre into pretty much all heroic fiction.

If you don't want to fight minions and want to fight more solo monsters/elites. Inform your DM and you might get some.