Minor items negating major challenges

[James McMurray]

Well, insofar as the pool of elements is concerned, it may be dangerous, but that does not prevent taking 10.
Disarming a trap is dangerous, but it doesn't threaten or distract the PC.
Negotiating a treaty with demons is dangerous, but it doesn't threaten or distract the PC (unless some demons actually are).
For the most part, if you're not in combat, you can take 10.

True.

The tumbler's shoes allow you to take 10 despite being threatened or distracted.
You're not being threatened or distracted in the first place.

I don't know. I'd consider being buffeted on all sides by fire, rain, lightning, giant boulders, and intense psychic energy to be fairly distracting.

Where bathing in the pool does not allow taking 10: It's not a mundane task, which is the other thing preventing you from taking 10.
Tumbler's shoes do nothing to make a task more mundane.

I hadn't noticed that part of the take 10 rules, still being hung up on the 3e definition. I'll point that out.

Are you allowing them to use the same skill multiple times?

For this type of challenge, I would say that one they are only allowed to use one Athletics check as their whole swim through the pool. Or only allow one success with the same skill.

The challenge is such that they can use the same skill over and over, but get more benefits if they successfully expand their horizons and try multiple things. We've had challenges where you could only try certain skills a limited number of times, and challenges where there was only a single skill available and everyone had to use it no matter how good they were at it.

 

[DMZ2112]

Well, by RAW taking 10 works in a skill challenge most of the time ... so the boots have a greater effect in your game.

What he said. The problem here is not the boots, it's the whole concept of taking 10 in D&D4. It just doesn't work as intended. In D&D3, it was sufficient for a task of average difficulty. In D&D4 it is sufficient for the vast majority of tasks. The boots are broken because they were written under a false assumption about how the rules work.

 

[keterys]

Well, by RAW taking 10 works in a skill challenge most of the time ... so the boots have a greater effect in your game.

By RAW (unless it was errata-ed), you can never take 10 in an encounter, and skill challenges are always an encounter. Ergo... you can't take 10 in a skill challenge.

Edit: Barring some ability that lets you take 10 even when 'threatened or distracted' that is, but 'distracted (when not in an encounter)' P179, first sentence of taking 10, is pretty straightforward for skill challenges.

 

[James McMurray]

I mentioned the part about mundane tasks, so the boots won't be used here. One or more players may get a Dynamic Belt instead (1/day reroll of an Athletics or Acrobatics roll). It doesn't look like the player who first brought up the shoes will, as that slot is already filled for him, but I don't think anyone else has seen the email. At least two of them were counting on the shoes plus an elixir to let them coast through, so they'll be loking for other options.

Anyone seen this with something not involving my campaign? I should have known better than to provide a specific example in the OP of a generic thread.

 

[Milambus]

My group uses the Hedge Wizards gloves (Mage Hand) to get through the Lightning Pillar room in Haunted Halls part 2 this weekend. Though technically I think the lever was supposed to require more force than Mage Hand can lift, so our DM may have let us get away with that one.

 

[cdrcjsn]

My group uses the Hedge Wizards gloves (Mage Hand) to get through the Lightning Pillar room in Haunted Halls part 2 this weekend. Though technically I think the lever was supposed to require more force than Mage Hand can lift, so our DM may have let us get away with that one.

It takes DC15 to move that lever. I think Mage Hand has a Str of 2? So it would take a roll of 19 or higher. Might take a while, but you can eventually do it.

As for the OP, not every skill check has to be a skill challenge and reward xp. If something is so trivial that the PCs don't really need to roll, then don't award xp.

On the other hand, if the PCs spent resources (item slots and consumables) to be able to do something reliably, then there's no reason not to once in a while give them a bone and be able to excell in something they've spent resources on.

 

[James McMurray]

As for the OP, not every skill check has to be a skill challenge and reward xp. If something is so trivial that the PCs don't really need to roll, then don't award xp.

On the other hand, if the PCs spent resources (item slots and consumables) to be able to do something reliably, then there's no reason not to once in a while give them a bone and be able to excell in something they've spent resources on.

I agree completely. If it came across otherwise I apologize for the confusion.

 

[Larrin]

This sounds like a sort of ritual something or another. Just have a voice tell them they need to take off their shoes before they under go the trial of the raging tempest. You know some "Only those is touch with the earth and the air can enter, unclad your feat and take off your iron robes" sort of speech (i threw in the armour bit so they can't claim you're just getting rid of the shoes).

The powers that be know all about "taking 10" and won't let their elements be swum in, taking in, and survived by a loophole in shoe form.

Thats a patch for this situation anyway, it may or may not be helpful.

 

[dbm]

I would also query how the PCs now exactly what skill check they are going to need to do, and the associated DC? Fair enough if that is the way you play your games, but our group wouldn't easily be able to pull off (or even rationalise) that level of pre-planning.

Cheers
Dan

 

[James McMurray]

This sounds like a sort of ritual something or another. Just have a voice tell them they need to take off their shoes before they under go the trial of the raging tempest. You know some "Only those is touch with the earth and the air can enter, unclad your feat and take off your iron robes" sort of speech (i threw in the armour bit so they can't claim you're just getting rid of the shoes).

The powers that be know all about "taking 10" and won't let their elements be swum in, taking in, and survived by a loophole in shoe form.

Thats a patch for this situation anyway, it may or may not be helpful.

Thanks, but a more rules-y and elss railroad-y solution has already been pointed out up thread.

I would also query how the PCs now exactly what skill check they are going to need to do, and the associated DC? Fair enough if that is the way you play your games, but our group wouldn't easily be able to pull off (or even rationalise) that level of pre-planning.

Cheers
Dan

They've met a man who has been through the pool several times, and discussed it at length with him. although in general we do say up front what the skills are for a skill challenge, it's just not usually as far in advance as this and doesn't give time to run out and buy/craft items.